Volume 10 Number 61
                       Produced: Mon Dec 13 18:07:32 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aserei b' Teves
         [Alan Davidson]
ba'yamim hahem U va'zman hazeh
         [Avi Hyman]
         [Jonathan Baker]
Chanukkah Megilla
         [Barry Siegel]
Kosher Snickerbars for Fundraisers
         [Harry Kozlovsky]
Molei and Choser
         [Yechiel Pisem]
Nusach of Brachot
         [Lou Rayman]
Pierced Ears
         [Warren Burstein]
School Curricula
         [Arthur Roth]
Separate Berachos for Chanuka Lights
         [Zvi Basser]


From: Alan Davidson <DAVIDSON@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 93 22:37:17 -0500
Subject: Aserei b' Teves

I know that most people are thinking about Hannukah, myself included,
but this year, for the time since I became observant, the Fast of Teves
falls on a Friday and unlike other fast days, whether public, private,
or semi-public (such as Yom Kippur Katan), the fast is not moved to
Thurday.  My question is (1) When does the fast end, evening or midday,
and (2) whether one says Avinu Malkenu or reads Torah at Minchah before
Kabbalos Shabbos.


From: <Avi_J._Hyman@...> (Avi Hyman)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 93 04:13:53 -0500
Subject: ba'yamim hahem U va'zman hazeh

Ever notice how some prayer books have the second Hanukkah blessing
written as: ba'yamim hahem U va'zman hazeh ("in those days AND in our
time") while others have it as: ba'yamim hahem va'zman hazeh ("in those
days at this time of the season")

One letter certainly has an affect on changing our theological
perspective of miracles, i.e., do miracles still happen in our time, or
are they remnants of the past?

Any thoughts/practices?


From: <baker@...> (Jonathan Baker)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 11:48:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Censorship

On the topic of censorship, here is an excerpt from my notes on Rabbi
Rakeffet's lectures on the Rav:

In 1935, the Rav applied for the Chief Rabbinate of Tel Aviv.  He didn't
get the job, mostly because he was viewed as too young...  He was
supported by Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, the last great Rav in Vilna.
Reb Chaim Ozer sent a letter to the Chazon Ish, who was living in Bnei
Brak at that time, urging him to support "the great, learned,
Heaven-fearing teacher, the young Rav Joseph Dov Soloveitchik."  When
the works of the Chazon Ish were published, the editors were so
embarassed by this letter supporting the Rav, (who had become a
supporter of the State of Israel) that the version of the letter in that
book replaces the name "Joseph Dov Soloveitchik" with an ellipsis.  This
is an example of the revisionism of the Right, that we have to watch out


From: <sieg@...> (Barry Siegel)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 09:38 EST
Subject: Chanukkah Megilla

There is a little known Megilla [scroll] of Chanukah which tells the
story of Chanukkah.  This Megilla is not very widespread.  I noticed it
in the back of the "Birnbaum" english-hebrew siddur.  I've heard that
this Megilla used to be read by Itallian jews (and others) out loud on

This Megillah tells the Chanukkah story in detail.  It was never
accepted as part of TANACH [24 books], for various reasons.  The most
obvious reason is that we do not know it's author and in any case was
written after the era of prophecy ended.  However, it is very
interestiong to read from a historical perspective.

Does anyone know if there are any commentaries (or even books) on it?
Also Has the codes of the Torah test ever been run on it.?  The results
would be interesting as this Megillah, which looks like a legitimate
Sefer [Torah book] and was obviously written way back when, yet was not
included in TANACH because of the "man-made" label.

Barry Siegel   HR 1K-120   (908)615-2928   hrmsf!sieg  OR  <sieg@...>

[I suspect that Barry is refering to what is usually called "Migillat
Antiyochus". I had always been under the impression that this was a
relatively late work (late or post Talmudic), but I have the impression
of someone telling me recently that current thought is that it is quite
old. Anyone out there that has some info? The other book/books that my
understanding is that they are from shortly after the period of Chanuka
is Sefer Macabee (1-4, I think, although again I have this vague feeling
that only 1 and 2 are "old", please correct me if you know.). Sefer
Macabee is part of the "Seforim Chetzonim"/Apocrephia (I know I spelled
that wrong, but ispell will not help me there). There are some very
significant differences between the story in Sefer Macabee and the
"standard" version. Mod.]


From: Harry Kozlovsky <HKOZLOVS@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 93 23:08:35 -0500
Subject: Kosher Snickerbars for Fundraisers


    Interested in a great fundraiser for your school or shul? How about
the unique novelty of selling KOSHER SNICKERBARS, yes kosher.

    The bars are specially packed for fundraising and are imported
from Australia and are under the Hashgacha of the Mizrachi Kashrut
Committee in association with the Chief Rabbinute of Israel and is
accepted by the Vaad Hakashrus of Baltimore (Star-K).

    Exclusively imported into the U.S. by Certified Foods. For specific
information about this exciting fundraising opportunity, please contact:

               YESHIVAT RAMBAM OF BALTIMORE (410)-358-6091


From: Yechiel Pisem <ypisem@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 11:16:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Molei and Choser

In response to the message in molei and choser, I would like to put in a
point.  It is mentioned in the Gemera Kiddushin, perek Ho'isha Nikneis,
around page 28: "I am not sure of that count: I am not familiar with
molei/choser" The differences in the sifrei torah are not usually very
large.  For example, I once heard that there are various experts in
Lashon Ha'Kodesh (Biblical hebrew) who say Vayehi Binso'a should not have
2 Nun's but one the correct way ond one reversed!  Please don't kill me
for what I heard...I'm not Bar Mitzvah yet.

[One of the advantages of email discussions is that you are safe from
physical abuse, so no one here will kill you, have no fear. I suspect
that you may be our youngest reader/contributer though. Mod.]


From: <lrayman@...> (Lou Rayman)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 93 04:13:39 -0500
Subject: Nusach of Brachot

A discussion of Brachot on Mitzvot Dirabanan on BALTUVA reminded me of a
question I've had for a while now...

During davening, when we refer to a mitzva that we are performing,
especially when we refer to the holidays, we use the TORAH names for the
holidays, e.g. Chag HaMatzot, Chag HaSukkot, or Yom HaZikaron (NOT Rosh
HaShana - discounting Piyutim which are of much later origin).

When we make Brachot, we almost always use TALMUDIC terms to refer to
mitzvot and holidays:
 - Lehaniach Tefilin.  The Torah uses the word Totafot when refering to
 - Lehadlik Ner Shel Yom Tov, not refering to individual holidays.  The
 term Yom Tov, I believe, comes from Megillat Esther and only in the
 gemarra is it used to refer to the Yomim Tovim.
 - If you follow the Nusach of Chabad (among others), Lehadlik Ner Shel
 Shabbat Kodesh, as opposed to just Shabbat.
 - Al Netillat Lulav. The word Lulav is not used in the torah (at least
 not when talking about the mitva of lulav); the term is "Kapot

I'm sure there are many more examples.

Why, when referring to mitzvot from the torah, don't we use the name
the torah gave to the mitzva?

Lou Rayman


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 11:48:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Pierced Ears

I have seen messages answering the question "is it permissiable for
women to pierce their ears" with "yes".  Now I am asking a different
question, how do we learn that men are prohibited from doing so while
women are permitted?
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very publishing house mathom.
 |warren@      But the Kibo
/ nysernet.org is worried.


From: <rotha@...> (Arthur Roth)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 11:54:22 -0600
Subject: School Curricula

    Someone (Andy Goldfinger, I think [I think it was Arnie Lustiger -
Mod.]) recently lamented the unavailability of a school with strong
curricula in both secular studies and limudei kodesh.  Yosef Bechhofer
offered the explanation that though individual parents might find this
situation problematic, such schools are scarce due to lack of sufficient
demand for them.  I believe that there is a HUGE demand for this type of
education, and that the problem is a lack of SUPPLY of appropriate
teachers for such schools.  Let me explain.
    Right wing (RW) rabei'im who don't pursue extensive secular
educations often pursue teaching of limudei kodesh as a career and
gravitate towards RW yeshivot.  This includes some of the brightest
among the RW.  On the other hand, the brightest among the "modern
Orthodox" (MO) who consider secular education a priority wind up
becoming doctors, lawyers, and other professionals; to them, a career in
education would be neither satisfying enough emotionally nor rewarding
enough financially.  As a result, schools that IN THEORY believe in
strong educations both secularly and religiously by and large (with some
notable exceptions) fail IN PRACTICE to accomplish either goal.
Similarly, most Orthodox schools that profess to teach ivrit b'ivrit
(religious subjects using conversation only in Hebrew) wind falling far
short of this goal in practice.
    So why have Flatbush Yeshiva and Ramaz been around for so long?  The
answer is that the type of teachers who are in such short supply can
find employment virtually anywhere they choose.  In a myriad of ways,
the New York metropolitan area has more to offer towards the lifestyle
of a committed Jew than anywhere in the world except possibly Israel.
In addition, salaries in that area are among the highest in the world
(for everyone, not just teachers).  So top-notch MO teachers who, for
whatever reasons, decide not to make aliyah gravitate to New York and
vicinity.  Also, many MO schools, including Flatbush and Ramaz, rely
fairly heavily upon "morim shelichim" (MS), i.e., Israeli Orthodox
educators who want to spend a few years abroad.  Again, since most of
these would like to go to New York, Ramaz and Flatbush usually wind up
being able to attract the best of them.  The rest of the U.S. (and the
world, for that matter) winds up with what's left.
    A friend of mine recently moved from Baltimore to Silver Spring.  He
had several reasons, but one of the major ones was being disgruntled
with the choice of schools in Baltimore.  Over the years, he had tried
several of them for his kids, and none of them came even close to
satisfying his perceived needs in both limudei kodesh and secular
studies simultaneously.  Without knowing anything about what's available
in Silver Spring, I would not be surprised if he winds up happier with
the schools than he was in Baltimore, but still not very happy in
absolute terms.
    In summary, I agree with Rav Bechhofer that the laws of supply and
demand are indeed at work here.  However, contrary to his assertion, I
believe that the scarcity of the type of school in question is due to a
supply problem rather than a lack of demand.  The supply problem is such
that it can be circumvented only in New York and Israel, with perhaps a
very small number of exceptions in some other locations.  Unfortunately,
there doesn't seem to be any feasible way of overcoming this problem in
most cities, even if the MO population is fairly large.


From: <fishbane@...> (Zvi Basser)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 93 22:08:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Separate Berachos for Chanuka Lights

> Zvi Basser writes:
> >The custom is that at least all males, if not females too now, light
> >hanuka lights separately in separate oil/candle holders and make
> >separate blessings. [Text deleted - Mod.] Why should everyone make a
> >separate blessing as is now the custom and not wish to fulfil the main
> >commandment and its blessings with the lighting of the first candle lit
> >in the house?
> I heard that there is a tshuva of R. Akiva Eger on this topic - his
> answer is that even though having each member of the family light is a
> "hidur"(enhancement), typically each person lighting has intention not
> to fulfill the mitzvah with the first lighting, and thus is able to make
> a blessing........
> Jeff Mandin

you omitted the vital part of my query, Jeff-- this is indeed the
custom. My question is simply why?-- isnt it better to fulfil the
principle of "berov am" (the more who join in the same act the better
for blessings) and then light the extra hidur menoras than to "not to
wish to fulfil the commandment" in this way and occasion separate
blessings for everyone in the house? Why should our hanuka custom be so
different from our normal principles.
 zvi basser


End of Volume 10 Issue 61