Volume 10 Number 86
                       Produced: Sun Dec 26 10:14:48 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

10th of Tevet on Shabbat (2)
         [Stephen Phillips, Lawrence J. Teitelman ]
CD Rom does not contain...
         [Jeff Finger]
Chanukah as a "beloved mitzvah"
         [Sigrid Peterson]
         [Aliza Berger]
Gematria (2)
         [Marc Shapiro, Hayim Hendeles]
Malei Ve_Haser (2)
         [Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank, Dr. Shalom Carmy]
Mormons and Genealogy and more
         [Janice Gelb]
Mormons and Vampires
         [Jack A. Abramoff]
TTFN - Ta Ta for now
         [David Charlap]


From: Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 93 05:22:59 -0500
Subject: Re: 10th of Tevet on Shabbat

> From: eisenbrg%<milcse@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
> Where is the pasuq "be`ezem hayom hazeh" that people have been referring
> to?  How does it relate to 10 Teveth?

I think it is mentioned in relation to Yom Kippur and is thus the
reason we fast on Yom Kippur even if it falls on a Shabbos. I don't
know where "be'etzem" is mentioned in regard to 10th Teves.

Gut Shabbos.
Stephen Phillips.

From: Lawrence J. Teitelman  <csljt@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 18:17:27 EST
Subject: 10th of Tevet on Shabbat

Scott Spiegler and Isaac Balbin (and perhaps other MJ readers too) have 
raised the issue of Asara be-Tevet falling out on Shabbat.

Isaac Balbin quotes the Rav zt"l in the name of Reb Chaim zt"l that "we
would fast". This appears in print in _Chiddushei ha-GRaCh al ha-Shas_
in a short piece entitled "Be-inyan Asara be-Tevet". As mentioned by
Scott Spiegler, the rationale is TaNaKh's usage of "be-etzem ha-yom 
ha-zeh" and the actual date, not simply the month ("tzom asiri")
in contradistinction to some other fast days. (See Yechezkel 24:2.)
This was not Reb Chaim's invention, however; it appears in the Agur
and the Bet Yosef too.`

It seems that according to Rashi (Megilla 5a s.v. aval zeman), asara
be-tevet gets postponed in the event that it falls on Shabbat.

Larry Teitelman


From: Jeff Finger <jfinger@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 93 11:42:36 -0500
Subject: CD Rom does not contain...

Note that the "Limited Edition" on CD Rom Judaic Classics Library,
contains does NOT contain mishnayot for which there is no gemara !  So,
if you are looking for that quote from Pirke Avot, it's not there.  For
that you need the "Deluxe Edition".

I called Davka to complain, and I was informed that "the mishna is not
technically part of the Talmud", they did offer to give me my money
back. I did not take it, though. The product is still a bargain.

-- Itzhak "Jeff" Finger --


From: <petersig@...> (Sigrid Peterson)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 21:25:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Chanukah as a "beloved mitzvah"

> From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver) 

> But that didn't happen. Why? Because my grandmother, seeing the recent
> events in Europe, realized that she couldn't take for granted that
> there would always be Jews out there to continue the traditions she
> had grown up with.  [...]

This level of fear that existed in the mid-40s in the United States,
that "no one could take it for granted that there would always be Jews
out there to continue the traditions" was very real.
	In October 1945, as the horror of the death camps became clear,
and winter descended on the refugee camps in Europe, my aunt and uncle,
one a jew by choice, and one a jew by birth, taught me (age 5, not
Jewish) the Shema`, so that if no Jews survived, I would grow up and
teach what Judaism had been, what Jews had believed.
	It took most of my adult life to figure out what to do with this
if Jews and Judaism survived.

Sigrid Peterson   UPenn  <petersig@...>


From: <A_BERGER@...> (Aliza Berger)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 17:30:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Gedolim

> I present Bechhofer's Oversimplified Test of Gadlus: Simply put, the
>most basic measure of Judaism is, for many reasons too numerous and
>complex to enumerate here, Halacha: its observance and knowledge.  The
>most serious area of Halacha is questions of Aguna (i.e., allowing a
>woman whose husband has disappeared to remarry on the basis of Halachic
>reasoning). Any Halachic authority who is of the stature in knowledge
>and ability to be *Mattir Agunos* is a Gadol.  One who is not,
>regardless of piety and prominence is not.  Of course, some Gedolim,

How did you come to this conclusion?  Is this your definition, or is it
based on some standard I am not familiar with?  Is it something like the
rule that to be appointed a judge, someone must be able to prove 70
different ways that something impure is pure (sorry, I don't remember
the case exactly), i.e. show their logical expertise, or is there
something special about agunah (e.g. a demonstration of compassion)?

Aliza Berger


From: Marc Shapiro <mshapiro@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 13:37:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Gematria

For those who asked about gematria, look at the entry in Encyclopedia
Judaica and you will find that it is much older than medieval times,
going back to our sages.
				Marc Shapiro

From: Hayim Hendeles <hayim@...>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 08:44:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Gematria

	Chaim Schild, in v10n51, asks when gematria was first used.
	Although I don't have any specific examples earlier than the
	one he cites, the word comes from the Greek "geometria", which
	evidently at one time meant mathematics in general (including
	arithmetic), not just geometry. So I would think that it
	originated in Hellenistic times, or perhaps around the time of
	the compilation of the Gemara, when it was still common to
	borrow words from Greek, but not earlier or later than that. A
	[much other stuff that I strongly disagree with, deleted]

ch"v To say such a thing. Gematria was part of the Divine transmission,
as is evident in Succa 28. As far as the Greek origin of the word, look
at the word "Apikorus". That is also a Greek word. By your logic, before
Hellenistic times there could have been no Apikorsim!

This is clearly absurd. Obviously, for whatever reason, Chazal borrowed
a well-known contemporary term to illustrate a concept.  That doesn't
mean the concept did not exist prior to this, it only reflects the
evolution (forgive me for using this word) of language.

Hayim Hendeles


From: Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank <ACOOPER@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 21:25:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Malei Ve_Haser

Is there a halachic basis for assuming the significance of words spelled
malei and chaser in the Torah?  How do those who find such significance
respond to Ibn Ezra's assertions (intro to the Torah commentary) that
raq le-tinoqim ta'ameihem tovim hem (they are worthwhile only for
infants) or (Safah Berurah, ed. Lippmann, p. 7a) hem tovim le-malle kol
chasar lev (they "fill up" the empty-headed)?  I am, of course, aware of
equally impassioned polemics on the other side (e.g., Rabbeinu Bachya on
Deut 34:6), but what is the authoritative teaching in this matter?  Not
opinions please, but references.

Alan Cooper

From: Dr. Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 17:01:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Malei Ve_Haser

On divergences between Rabbinic versions of pesukim and printed texts, 
tune in for an extensive article by Yeshaayahu Maori, to be published 
within the year (I hope) in MODERN SCHOLARSHIP IN THE STUDY OF TORAH: 
CONTRIBUTIONS AND LIMITATIONS (ed. S. Carmy; Jason Aronson Press).


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 17:00:58 -0500
Subject: Mormons and Genealogy and more

In mail.jewish Vol. 10 #81 Digest, Najman Kahan writes:

>	It seems strange to me that so much band width is used on a,
> relatively, obscure package.
>	One of the best known PC packages (and an excellent product !)
> is WordPerfect.  This package is produced by the same Mormons, who still
> tithe to their church.

Once again, the issue is not the acceptability of Mormon beliefs, or
buying things from them knowing that they donate a tithe of their
earnings to their church. The original poster was hesitant about buying
a genealogy software package from the Mormons because the Mormons use
that particular software to help fulfill their own religious beliefs. It
was the software itself that was the issue.

Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
<janiceg@...>   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 


From: Jack A. Abramoff <71544.2433@...>
Date: 23 Dec 93 19:30:28 EST
Subject: Mormons and Vampires

In 10/81, the Hyatt Hotel chain was listed as owned by Mormons. I think
the writer was referring to the Marriot chain.  To the best of my
knowledge, Hyatt is owned by the Pritzker family of Chicago, who are

I have received a plethora of mail from members of the list requesting
sources for my posting about the concept of the vampire being rooted in
anti-Semitism.  I will happily trace down my sources and come back with
a posting shortly; but, I wanted to add one aspect of the vampire legend
which further shows this foundation.  As I mentioned, the black clothes,
drinking blood, night time activity, wealth of a mysterious source and
the like all fit the stereotypes which have come to be identified with
Jews, but I forgot a crucial element: the vampire runs from the cross.
Anyway, more anon.

I hope all have an easy fast and a Gut Shabbos,

Jack Abramoff


From: <dic5340@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 93 01:32:51 -0500
Subject: TTFN - Ta Ta for now

It's now the end of the school year, and I will be (in a month or so)
starting a career with a computer company doing programming.  Anyway,
between now and then, I will probably not have access to the Internet.

Because of this, I will be unsubscribing from the list for the time in
between, to resubscribe from my new address when I get established

In the meanwhile, I would like to thank everybody on the list for their
input to the many discussions I've been involved in, both public and

Thanks much, and I'll return soon,
	--- David Charlap


End of Volume 10 Issue 86