Volume 11 Number 5
                       Produced: Wed Jan  5 18:53:58 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

10th of Teves
         [Lucia Ruedenberg]
10th of Teves on a Friday
         [Lou Rayman]
10th of Teves on Shabbat (2)
         [Lawrence J. Teitelman , Ophir S Chernin]
Gematria and Apikorus
         [Robert Israel]
Ma'ariv before Tzeis from Vol. 10 #79 Digest
         [Susan Hornstein]
Tu'Bishvat or Purim plays
         [Aryeh Blaut]
Wedding invitations and the Messiah
         [Saul Stokar]


From: <RUEDNBRG@...> (Lucia Ruedenberg)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 93 19:00:55 -0500
Subject: Re: 10th of Teves

with regard to the 10th of Teves - I am interested in hearing from
people who commemorate the Holocaust on this day. If not, is there
another day, or another way for ritual commemoration of that disaster
that you observe?




From: <lrayman@...> (Lou Rayman)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 11:14:58 -0500
Subject: 10th of Teves on a Friday

To point out an interesting calendar fact: When Asara B'Tevet falls on a
Friday, the following year becomes very interesting halachik-ly:

- Purim comes out on a Friday, this year on Feb 25.  This forces us
chootzniks to give Mishloach Manot and eat our Purim Seudah early in the
day, while our brethren in Yerushalaim and other walled cities have a 3
day Purim celebration!

- The first day of Pesach is Sunday, March 27.  Thus, the first seder
will be on Motaei Shabbat, March 26.  In order to have Lechem Mishna for
the Shabbat meals that day, Erev Pesach, one must eat very early,
because one cannot eat any matzoh on erev pesach, and one cannot eat
chametz after a certain time (usually around 9:30-10:00 AM here in NY).
Also, one cannot make any seder/yom tov preperations until after Shabbat
is over; meaning the seder wont start until pretty late!

- Rosh Chodesh Av falls out on Shabbat (July 9).  Some Chazanim have a
tradition of special nigunim that they use only for Rosh Chodesh Av (the
beginning of the 9 Days before Tisha Bav - a period of Mourning) that
falls on Shabbat.  There is also a question of which Haftarah to read -
the regular one for Shabbat Rosh Chodesh, or the second of the three
Haftarot before Tisha Bav.

- Finally, Tisha B'Av falls out on Sunday (July 17 - not on Shabbat and
pushed off till Sunday).  Many (if not most?) Rishonim hold that when
Tisha Bav falls on Sunday, the laws of "Shevua shechal bo Tisha Bav"
(extra laws of mouning that apply on the week of Tisha Bav) would not
apply this year.

(Actually, all this holds true when Asara B'Tevet falls out on Friday
and the year is NOT a leap year.  On a leap year, Purim coming out on a
Friday would still indicate all the rest of the dates.)

Lou Rayman


From: Lawrence J. Teitelman  <csljt@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 13:13:28 EST
Subject: 10th of Teves on Shabbat

The "Reb Chayim" which I and others have quoted cites the Ba`al Hilkhot
Gedolot as his source for the opinion that if 10 Tevet falls out on
Shabbat, then the fast is observed "on that day". In some newer editions
of the Chiddushei ha-Grach al ha-Shas, the printers have added "(Bet
Yosef be-shem ha-Agur)" at the end of the piece. Also, on one occasion I
mentioned this Reb Chayim to a prominent talmid of the Rav, and he told
me that it was the Agur (and he hadn't seen the newer edition of the Reb
Chayim). I have searched both the Sefer ha-Agur and two editions of the
Hilkhot Gedolot, but have not been able to locate this particular
ruling. (The Agur in two places -- Hil. Shabbat #402 and Hil. Ta`anit
#881 -- does say in the name of the Shibbolei ha-Leket that one can fast
a "ta`anit chalom" on Shabbat because the relief experienced by a person
fasting after a bad dream constitutes "oneg Shabbat". While this notion
is part of Reb Chayim's reasoning, the application to 10 Tevet is not
explicitly made by the Agur -- at least not in either of the two
aforementioned locations.)  The Bet Yosef (O.C. 550) does quote the
Avudraham as supporting this position, and I *did* find it in the
Avudraham (Jerusalem 5723, p. 254) under "ha-Ta`aniyot".

As mentioned in a previous posting, Rashi (Megilla 5a) disagrees, arguing
that 10 Tevet is postponed until Sunday. He is cited by the Bet Yosef (ibid).
Also Rambam, Hil. Ta'aniyot 5:5 and the "Mechaber" 550:3 strongly imply that
they accept the opinion that 10 Tevet is no different than 17 Tammuz, 9 Av,
and 3 Tishrei.

If anyone finds either the Behag or the Agur, please post the source on MJ 
or send me private email at <csljt@...>

Larry Teitelman

From: Ophir S Chernin <osc4@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 17:27:16 -0500
Subject: 10th of Teves on Shabbat

One response on this issue noted that the Beis Yosef mentions that if
the 10th of Teves falls on Shabbos we would fast.  I discussed this
issue with a Talmid Chacham last Shabbos (before seeing the MJ article)
and the Beis Yosef quotes this idea in the name of the Abudraham and
then the Beis Yosef continues by saying that he does not understand the
basis of the Abudraham.  The Abudraham says that if the 10th of Teves
would fall on Shabbos we would fast because of a connection he makes
with Yom Kippur.  The Abudraham was explained to me as follows: the
Abudraham really holds that there is no such thing as one of the '4
fasts' (see Zecharia 8th chapter) which is pushed off.  Really the fast
is supposed to fall in a given MONTH, as we can see from the verse which
refers only to the month of the fasts and not the actual day.  Therefore
when a fast falls on Shabbos and is held on Sunday it is not pushed off
because it still falls in the same month (Just that our Rabbis had
special reason to choose a specific day.  This is exemplified by the
fact that even regarding the 9th of Av, there is a discussion in the
Gemara if this should have fallen on the 9th or 10th of Av).  However,
Yom Kippur is different because the Torah calls it "Shabbat Shabbason"
and therefore it is held on Shabbos.  There is another verse regarding
Yom Kippur which says "be'etzem ha'yom ha zeh" which means "on this
specific day", therfore any fast which falls on a specifc day must be
held on this day.  Based on this reason, the Abudraham says there is a
source that the 10th of Teves must fall on the 10th, and therefore even
if the 10th falls on Shabbos the Abudraham holds that we would fast on
Shabbos.  The Beis Yosef does not understand the Abudraham because the
Abudraham's source is not clear, one possible source (which is not a
good proof and therefore could be rejected by the Beis Yosef) is that
the reference in the verse in Zecharia refers to the 10th MONTH and DAY,
however this is not good because the wording is the same as by the other
fasts where the number refers only to the day and not the month.

Ophir :)


From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 93 20:28:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Gematria and Apikorus

In v.10 n.86, Hayim Hendeles writes:

>                Gematria was part of the Divine transmission,
> as is evident in Succa 28.

Would you mind explaining how this is "evident"?  As far as I can see, 
Succa 28 just mentions that R. Yohanan b. Zakkai studied gematria.  That
certainly puts it earlier than the Gemara, but not before Hellenistic
times.  Do you know of examples of gematria from an earlier period than

>                             As far as the Greek origin of the word, look
> at the word "Apikorus". That is also a Greek word. By your logic, before
> Hellenistic times there could have been no Apikorsim!

Actually, that's an interesting question.  Languages do evolve, and
"apikorus" in particular can have a number of different meanings.  In the
sense of "someone who does not accept the authority of the Torah" or "someone
who does not respect the Sages", I'd have to agree that there were some
before Hellenistic times.  But the original meaning of the word might have
been more specific, referring to the Epicurean school of philosophy (in 
addition to the play on words with "hefker").  Epicureans were rationalists
who believed in a world of atoms and chance, unaffected by the gods, and an 
ethics based on enlightened self-interest.  This was a point of view that
really was characteristically Greek, and as far as I know didn't exist in 
Israel before Hellenistic times.

Robert Israel                            <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics             

University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Y4


From: <susanh@...> (Susan Hornstein)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 93 15:11:11 -0500
Subject: Ma'ariv before Tzeis from Vol. 10 #79 Digest

I'd like to expand Yechiel Pisem's query about the status of
the day when Ma'ariv is said before Tzeit HaKochavim, and provide a
small amount of clarification from my own experience.  There are two
parts to this issue:  1) what is the status of Bein Ha'shemashot -- the
period between Shkia (dusk) and Tzeit (ablsolute nightfall) and
2) To what extent is Ma'ariv the actual demarcation between two days.
Mostly questions:
1. Yechiels' question:  If you daven Ma'ariv before Tzeit, should you then
light Chanukah candles for the next day. 
My experience:  One ideally lights Chanukah candles before Tzeit, at
the time that "people are out in the streets" for the purpose of
pirsumi nisa (publicizing the miracle), so Ma'ariv is not relevant.
2.  Another recent post talked about davening Ma'ariv before Tzeit when
you have a Minyan together then.  I recall learning that if one had to
wait a little after Shkia to say Mincha (to get a Minyan) then one MUST
wait until after Tzeit to say Ma'ariv, but if one davened Mincha before
Shkia, one could daven Ma'ariv before Tzeit -- Bein Hashemashot could
only be part of one of the days at a time.
3.  What if you say Birkat Hamazon at Seudah Shlishit on Shabbat after
Tzeit?  Do you say Retzei? (I only know of YES answers to this.)  If
the next day (Motzaei Shabbat & Sunday) is Rosh Chodesh, do you also 
say Ya'aleh V'yavo?  (I know of YES and NO answers to this.)
4.  And here's one I have NO answers to, but REALLY want some...  What if
you end Shabbat by saying the phrase "Baruch Hamavdil bein kodesh l'chol,"
(as I frequently do, having care of a toddler) and wish to daven Ma'ariv
later in the evening (like after she's in bed).  Do you say "Ata
Chonantanu" or has it lost its significance since you've already ended
Shabbat?  What if you say "Baruch Hamavdil" and daven Ma'ariv only a
little later, but before Havdalah (like after your husband has davened
and can take care of the selfsame toddler).  Then it's still the generally
right time period, but you've still ended Shabbat another way.  Do you say
Ata Chonantanu?
This is longer than I intended.  Sorry.  Mazal Tov, Yechiel on your 
Bar Mitzvah.  I don't think age is any excuse for asking good questions.
Susan Hornstein


From: Aryeh Blaut <ny000592@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 93 01:36:04 -0500
Subject: Tu'Bishvat or Purim plays

I am looking for (a) play(s) on the topic of Tu B'shvat and Purim
in Hebrew (language) for elementary school students.

You can either fax them to me c/o Seattle Hebrew Academy (206) 323-5779;
attention: Rabbi Aryeh Blaut.  You can mail plays to SHA, Attention 
Rabbi Aryeh Blaut; 1617 Interlaken Dr E.; Seattle, Washington  98112.

If you need to e-mail me for more information: <ny000592@...>
Phone contact:  School: (206) 323-5750   Home: (206) 723-4162.

Thank you in advance.

Aryeh Blaut


From: <sol@...> (Saul Stokar)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 93 09:53:31 -0500
Subject: Wedding invitations and the Messiah

In m-j V10 #97, Rick Tukel (<rmt51@...>) responded to a query regarding
the custom of listing Jerusalem as the default site for a wedding, with
HOMETOWN being the venue only if the Messiah does not arrive. In our
synagogue (Bet Knesset Ariel in Ra'anana,Israel) a member by the name of
Moti Kedar introduced the following custom (from his previous synagogue
in Kfar Ganim): On the Shabbat before Tisha B'Av (the fast of the ninth
of Av) we announce "On Monday evening (for instance) we will have our
Tisha B'Av celebration (in accordance with the the prophet Zachariah's
idea that after the Temple is rebuilt, all the fast days commemorating
tragedies will be transformed into holidays). In the unlikely event that
the Messiah does not arrive before then, Ma'ariv (evening services) and
Kinnot (the reading of the book of Lamentations) will take place at

Saul Stokar
Ra'anana Israel


End of Volume 11 Issue 5