Volume 11 Number 38
                       Produced: Mon Jan 24 21:46:27 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bar Papa
         [Aharon Fischman]
Centrist vs Haredi
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Contraception Halachot
         [Ronald Barry]
Davening and Western Manners
         [Leah S. Reingold]
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Kiddush and Length of Service
         [Jonathan Goldstein]
Length of Services
         [Eva David]
Newsweek Letter to the Editor
         [R. Shaya Karlinsky]
Quote about Midrash?
         [Bobby Fogel]
Tenth of Tevet
         [Henry Edinger]


From: <afischma@...> (Aharon Fischman)
Date: 20 Jan 94 14:30:06 GMT
Subject: Bar Papa

On the matter of whether or not any of the sons of Papa (Bar Papa) that are 
mentioned in the Siyum (conclusion) of Gemorah, Rafram bar Papa is mentioned 
in Mesechet (Tractate) Brachot on Daf Nun amud alef (p. 50a) with regards to 
the wording of the Mezuman (Invitation to say grace) before Benching (Grace 
after meals).

Aharon Fischman


From: eisenbrg%<milcse@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 01:42:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Centrist vs Haredi

Rivkah Isseroff wrote:
>This led me to ask myself what I knew about defining the terms Centrist
>and Charedi, and admittedly, it is very little.  Outside of identifying
>members belonging to these groups by attire (ie presence or absence lack
>of hair covering for women, Kippah s'rugah, black hat) ...

I do not consider myself to be Haredi (I'm not sure what a centrist is).
I do wear a knitted kippah; however, I would be quite annoyed if my wife
were to go in public bare-headed.  As far as I know, the Shulhan `Arukh
DOES require a married woman to cover her hair.  It does not dictate what
color and material are required for a man's head covering.

The term "Haredi" is used in the Shulhan `Arukh to describe someone who, 
during Pesah, eats shmurah mazah (only) watched from the time of reaping.

My impression is that the term "Haredi" has turned into more of a political
label, usually applied to those who are anti-(Israeli) government.  I'm not
sure how valid this is, since I know people who would consider themselves
"haredi", yet support the concept of the government (not necessarily the
current government): vote in elections, not circumvent army service, etc.
In support of this impression, when I lived in the States, I don't remember
hearing the term "haredi" used (since those living in the States have little
to do with the Israeli government).

To paraphrase Rabbi Leff of Matityahu (is he haredi? -- I don't know, but
the people who live in Matityahu vote in elections and serve in the army),
based on his reaction to a hevra kadisha (burial society) meeting he once
attended, where a large emphasis was placed on respect to the dead, he
reacted: if only we could give such respect to the living without worrying
what color kippah they wore.


From: <RONBARRY@...> (Ronald Barry)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 01:23:37 -0500
Subject: Contraception Halachot

In response to Daniel Epstein's request for halachic sources on
contraception - there is a comprehensive article in The Journal of Halacha
and Contemporary Society (volume 4, Fall 1982), entitled "Halachic Aspects
of Family Planning" authored by Rabbi Herschel Schachter. The volume can be
ordered from Yeshiva RJJ in Staten Island, NY.

Ronald Barry


From: <leah@...> (Leah S. Reingold)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 13:07:58 -0500
Subject: Davening and Western Manners

Freda Birnbaum commented that Conservative and Reform services seem to
conform more closely to western church etiquette than do Orthodox
services; several people have objected to her comments, but perhaps I
can clarify her point:

Conservative (and especially Reform) services differ from Orthodox in
their protocol.  These differences often come up in cases where
religious sentiment or obligation conflicts with what is commonly
accepted in a Christian setting.

One example of this is that in Orthodox shuls, it is not uncommon to see
people standing while others are sitting.  This sometimes occurs during
kaddish, during parts of the preliminary morning service, during the
Torah reading, and when someone has arrived late and is trying to catch
up.  In a church (according to my Catholic friend who visited shul with
me and commented on the subject), it would be startlingly poor manners
for someone to stand while others were sitting (or kneeling) in a
Catholic service.  Similarly, Reform and Conservative services often
have instructions: "please rise," "you may be seated," etc.

Another example is that on various holidays, in Orthodox shuls, there
are certain 'jokes' including squirt guns for rain prayers or funny
voices in Megilla reading.  While some Conservative services have these
jokes as well, I have heard comments from Reform friends of mine that
such jokes detract from their spiritual experience by making the service
less dignified.  I suspect that the same objections would be voiced by

These differences do not reflect well or poorly on any group of praying
people; they simply reveal the fact that Conservative, Reform, and
Christian services tend to be more uniform in who says what, in what
position, when.

This issue relates to the 'Kiddush Clubs' because perhaps in Orthodox
settings, there is enough worshipper autonomy that it seems reasonable
for a person or two to step out for a while, or to stand up and move
about while everyone else is sitting down.  If this causes less raising
of eyebrows than it would in other services, then this lack of peer
pressure might encourage Kiddush Clubs to continue.

Leah S. Reingold


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 05:26:51 -0500
Subject: Gedolim

Ben Zion Berliant indicated that a "Rav" needs smicha. While I really
don't want to get into the question of What validity smicha has
nowadays, I do want to recount a story that took place at my Chasunah.
At a table populated by several rabbis and their wives (yes there was
mixed seating), one leading rabbi said "Kibbitzingly" (jokingly) to Rav
Chaim Zimmerman Shlita - then Rosh Yeshiva of Skokie: "Reb Chaim, of all
the rabbis sitting at this table, You are the only one who doesn't have
smichah". Reb Chaim smiled and in his inimitable style responded: " That
is true, I do not have smichah. But which one of you gentlemen will have
the Chutzpah to give me Smichah!?"  Like Yichus (lineage), there are
those who have smicha "bizchut atzmam" (because of their own merit).


From: <Jonathan.Goldstein@...> (Jonathan Goldstein)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 02:40:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Kiddush and Length of Service

In Volume 11 Number 35 Lon Eisenberg (eisenbrg%<milcse@...>)

> ... Almost every shul (there are about 10 of them in our neighborhood)
> starts at about 8 and finishes a bit after 10.  I really wouldn't mind
> finishing at 8 or 9 and having morning kiddush and breakfast.

Lon, I hope the following makes you feel less hungry :-).

I walk 1 1/2 hours to a very nice minyan that starts at 9.45 and
finishes just after 11.30. My local shule starts at 9.00 and finishes at
11.30.  I prefer the distant minyan, and the long walk is the only time
in the week I spend more than a few minutes alone with myself (the route
passes some speactacular coastal beaches).

However, after the gubbay has forced upon me more a couple of shots at
kiddush, I'm lucky if I have the presence of mind to refuse cholent on a hot
day. (Hot Sydney summer day + cholent = sleep for at least 4 hours + miss a
good shiur.)

BTW, I've never come across a kiddush club in Sydney, but perhaps it's a
conspiracy to keep me away from the tasty pickles that I like so much.

Jonathan Goldstein       <Jonathan.Goldstein@...>       +61 2 339 3677


From: Eva David <ny000550@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 17:37:19 -0400
Subject: Length of Services 

When I first saw Freda Birnbaum's reaction that Orthodox services are
soooooo long, etc. etc. etc. I was taken aback and thought I was being
too sensitive.

Over the past few weeks, I have seen several responses.  I therefore
also want to make a few comments, as well.  I am orthodox and daven in
an Orthodox shul every Shabbat.

Let's face facts.  We are not children.  When we are young, we want to
rush through some davening so we can "go out and play" with our friends.
As adults, we should have learned, at least I feel so, that Hashem is
interested in how we daven - the idea is to have kavona (respect) and
keep in mind that many people daven asking Hashem to listen to our
specific requests and to favor us with a positive response to our
prayers.  This takes time and effort.

Some of us want to say every word and mean it.  Some of us just do lip
service and that is good for them - not for the majority.  We are
obligated to daven shacharit; we are obligated to hear the Torah being
read; we are obligated to daven musaf and to do it in a certain frame of

Is the davening on Yom Kippur also too long?  After all, we only are
asking Hashem to forgive our sins done during the past year - that
should take what, half an hour?

Why not just come to shul, say hello and schmooze with everyone, which a
lot of people do anyway during the whole time they are there, (maybe
that's what is too long, saying hello and talking to everyone) and then
go home???


From: R. Shaya Karlinsky <msbillk@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 23:23:28 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Newsweek Letter to the Editor

I don't know if this made it in the US domestic Newsweek, but in the Jan.
24 issue of the International edition, there is a letter to the editor
justifying Rabin's - and Israel's - hesitation to shake hands with Yasser
Arafat.  "The Israeli people have neither faith nor trust in the
outstrteched hand of one who continues to work for their annihalation."

The author obvioulsy had more in mind than politics.  The significance of
his middle-eastern sounding name must have escaped the editors.  He
signed his name "Yisrael Btah Bashem."


From: <bobby@...> (Bobby Fogel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 16:39:34 +0000
Subject: Quote about Midrash?

I remember hearing a quote about agaddah that goes the following:

"Those that believe none of them are fools
 and those that believe all of them are also fools"

This quote is not exact but it retains the flavor of the original; the
point of which is that aggaddah was formulated in two ways.  One is
historical aggaddah and the other alegorical.  (obviously, there are
those that contain elements of both!)  My question is does anybody know
the EXACT quote and who it is attributable to (and when).  I seem to
remember this being attributed to Rabi Akiba, however this does not seem
quite right. Anybody Help!

[It sounds closer to the position of the Rambam in the introduction to
Perek Khelek, but it is a couple of pages there, not a two liner. Mod.]


From: Henry Edinger <edinger@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 19:46:25 -0500
Subject: Tenth of Tevet

In Vol. 11, no. 5 Lucia Ruedenberg asked if there were people who
commemorated the Holocaust on the Tenth of Tevet and if there were other
days or ways in which that disaster was ritually observed.

The German Orthodox Breuer's community recites a special selicha on one
of the BeHaB fasts that falls closest to November 9 - the anniversary of
Kristallnacht. This is usually near the Tenth of Tevet. They also recite
a kinnah on the night of Tisha B'Av composed by Rabbi Shimon Schwab
entitled "Al Churban Acharon" which commemorates the holocaust. This
community, as well as some others, recites a memorial prayer for the six
million martyrs as part of the Yizkor service on Yom Kippur and the

Henry Edinger


End of Volume 11 Issue 38