Volume 11 Number 43
                       Produced: Wed Jan 26 18:33:39 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Burial of non-Jews and Jews
         [Alan Zaitchik]
Erev Pesach on Shabat
         [Yisrael Medad]
Minyan - catching up
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
Three day purim
         [Gedalyah Berger]
Travelling on a Ship
         [Yacov Barber]
What to say in Birkat Hamazon at Seudah Shlishit
         [Lawrence J. Teitelman ]


From: Alan Zaitchik <ZAITCHIK@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 14:48:05 -0500
Subject: Burial of non-Jews and Jews

Warren Burstein asks about the burial of non-Jews and Jews.

There is an interesting Rambam (chapter 10 of Hilchot M'lachim (Kings),
halacha 12) in which he says (my translation) "Even with respect to Akum
(gentiles) the Sages commanded that we visit their sick and bury their
dead with the dead of Israel and provide for their poor together with
the poor of Israel, out of "darchei shalom" (peace), for it is written
"God is good unto all and His mercies are upon all His creatures", and
it is written "(the Torah's) ways are ways of pleasantness and all (its)
paths are paths of peace".

Well of course everyone comments that the Rambam cannot _possibly_ mean
that one buries dead non-Jews literally "together with" dead Jews, in
the same cemetery, and he must mean only that one is commanded to attend
to deceased gentiles and give them burial in their own cemetery.

But I wonder... after all, the Rambam was a master stylist and surely
knew that the plain meaning of his words would be taken as allowing the
coburial of Jews and nonJews! Secondly, note the Rambam's mention of
visiting the gentile sick. Did the Rambam not know of all the Gamaras
which seem to prohibit saving idolators?  Does it make any sense to
visit the sick idolator but refuse to heal him? True, "akum" here may be
a censor's substitution for "nachri", but then that is true of the
G'marras I am alluding to as well!

I think it is arguable (how plausible I couldn't say) that what the
Rambam is doing here is pushing the limits of the halacha way out beyond
the concept of "mishum eivah" to arrive at a more interesting concept of
"darchei shalom". No doubt the Rambam would apply "darchei shalom" to
curing the akum as well, despite the clear G'marras that would seem to
prohibit this (certainly for a genuine "akum"!) So isn't it possible
that the Rambam is also pushing back the limits on co-burial?

Anyway, whatever one makes of this Rambam, making a fuss about burying
non-Jews such as a Druze in an Israeli military cemetery alongside Jews,
certainly creates a chilul hashem. It certainly creates a great deal of
"eivah" and makes the Torah look like anything but "darchei noam".

Alan Zaitchik


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 94 17:09:30 -0500
Subject: Erev Pesach on Shabat

On behalf of my wife, this is in response to Lou Rayman's posting
in Vol 11 No 5:

the custom here in Israel, is to make the motzi on the challot rolls
*outside* the house on the balcony and after brushing off crumbs to
come inside and eat in a corner off the main dining room table on paper
goods, etc. or to eat outside altogether.

as to making seder preparations on the Shabat, everything should have been
done *prior* to the Shabat as the house need be "pesachdik" by the
entrance of Shabat.  For housewives, as my wife tells me, this should be
the most relaxed of Shabatot and the women especially should be all
relaxed by the time the men go the Arvit service and then all that needs
to be done is to set the table - the charoset, maror, shankbone as well
as the cooking having been done Thursday night-Friday.

Yisrael Medad


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 02:07:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Minyan - catching up

> From: <A_BERGER@...> (Aliza Berger)
> Of course I NEVER come late to shul, but just in case:
> When praying in synagogue, it is a large priority to recite the silent
> shmoneh esrei together with the congregation.  Does this apply only if one
> is present/caught up enough to begin the shmoneh esrei at the same time as
> the congregation, or also if one will begin it while they are in the 
> middle? (even if one will then not be able to respond to kedusha, being
> still saying the silent shmoneh esrei).
> Sources will be appreciated.

Since I happen to be at home reading this, and since I actually looked
into this a while back, I can actually look up the "later" sources.
Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayim 52, 65 and 109 discusses this and other
issues relevant to arriving late to davening.  The basic rule is that
one recites the Amida with the congregation provided that one will not
miss key parts in doing so.  If one will miss key parts, one waits and
recites it afterwards.  The Mechaber considers the kedushah and the
kaddish afterwards to be key parts for this purpose.  The Remah adds the
blessing of HaKel Hakadosh and Shomei'a Tefilah as key parts for this
purpose.  If you start the amida after the kedushah, then Modim also
counts as a key section.  For all these cases, you can either have time
to start and finish or recite these sections along with the leader.

I also have a sadder posting.

Subject: The Young Israel of Brookline Synagogue

No doubt many of you have heard about the disaster that took place in
the Young Israel of Brookline this past Tuesday morning.  The entire
Shul burned down, and many Sifrei Torah were destroyed.  It will take
over a year to rebuild the Shul, and preliminary estimates of the cost
is on the order of a million dollars.  This shul housed the largest
Orthodox congregation in New England.

In addition to any donations that might be forthcoming, there is a
request for a donation of 2 computers to replace the ones destroyed in
the fire.  The shul records have been kept on an IBM compatible 386 box.
A macintosh was used for all other functions.  The request is for:

1. 386/486 IBM compatible, 25 Mhz or better, at least 2MB ram, 80MB hard disk.
2. Macintosh
3. Laser printer
4. Copy machine.

Anyone who can donate any of the above items is invited to get in touch with me
via e-mail or to call Bob Geller at (617)734-5839.  Everyone at the Shul thanks
you in advance.

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: Gedalyah Berger <gberger@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 21:28:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Three day purim

> From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
> Lou Rayman recently mentioned in a post about the "three day Purim" that
> falls for people in Jerusalem and other walled cities when Shushan Purim
> falls on Shabbos.I was wondering what is actually done on each of the
> the three days in those locations that makes it a "3 day Purim".

The "Purim meshulash' is split up as follows:
The megillah is read and matanot l'evyonim (gifts for the poor) are 
collected and distributed on Friday.  The Torah reading of Purim and Al 
Hanissim are said on Shabbos.  The se`udah (festive meal) is eaten and 
mishloach manot (exchange of foods - unless someone has a better 
translation) are sent on Sunday.  See Shulchan Arukh O"H 688:6 and 
Mishnah Berurah there #18. 

The megillah can't be read on Shabbos because Chazal were worried that 
the megillah would be improperly carried to shul. (The same gezeirah 
applies to lulav and shofar.)  The Yerushalmi says that the se`udah can't 
be on Shabbos based on a derashah from a pasuk in the megillah.  (Some 
acharonim felt that the Bavli disagreed - see M"B ibid.)

Gedalyah Berger
Yeshiva College / RIETS


From: <barbery@...> (Yacov Barber)
Date: Fri, Jan 07 09:48:44 1994
Subject: Travelling on a Ship

 A question was asked concerning travelling on a boat on Shabbos. The
source is a Breisa in Masechta Shabbos Daf Yud Tes Amud Aleph (19.). The
section begins with the words Tonu Rabbonon ayn maphligin basfino... (One
is prohibited to set out by ship..). This section of the Gemorah is
discussed in Hilchos O.C. Sect. 248. In brief: If one is travelling for the
sake of a mitzvah one can board a ship even Erev Shabbos. If it is for
personal reasons one is prohibitted to board a ship from the wednesday
before Shabbos (The Vilna Gaon quotes Rishonim who permit one to board a
ship on the wednesday).In Shulchan Aruch Admur Hazoken it is written,if one
is travelling for buisness even if he has what to eat or to visit freinds
it is considered for the sake of a mitzvah, travelling simply for pleasure
i.e. a cruise is considered for personal reasons. There are opinions who
say that it must be for the sake of a Mitzvah Gemurah (I am writting this
note on 24 Tevet the yahrtzeit of the Admur Hazoken). The reason for the
prohibition is that when one travells on a ship it takes 72 hours to
aclimate oneself to the new and different surroundings (i.e. sea sickness).
Therefore if one would travell on a boat close to Shabbos it would take
away one's Oneg (pleasure relating to) Shabbos.(Other reasons are quoted in
the Rishonim).Based on this reason the prohibition applies only to travell
on the ocean, however if one is travelling only on a river (where it isn't
so rough) it is permitted,(there are other conditions applicable to a
river). There is an interesting tshuvah in Mishneh Halochos vol.3 sect.35
dealing with the question if one can join the navy.

Rabbi Yacov Barber
South Caulfield Hebrew Congregation
Phone: +613 576 9225
Fax: +613 528 5980


From: Lawrence J. Teitelman  <csljt@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 15:10:07 EST
Subject: What to say in Birkat Hamazon at Seudah Shlishit

> From: <susanh@...> (Susan Hornstein) (MJ V11N5)
> What if you say Birkat Hamazon at Seudah Shlishit on Shabbat after
> Tzeit?  Do you say Retzei? (I only know of YES answers to this.)  If
> the next day (Motzaei Shabbat & Sunday) is Rosh Chodesh, do you also 
> say Ya'aleh V'yavo?  (I know of YES and NO answers to this.)

According to the Rosh (in a variety of places, though most explicitly in
his Teshuvot), one decides whether to "mazkir me'ein ha-me'ora`" (i.e. to
insert retze, ya`ale ve-yavo, etc.) based on the time at which one recites
birkat ha-mazon without regard for the time at which the meal was eaten.
He compares birkat ha-mazon to tefillat tashlumin (a "makeup" davening):
just as one who missed a mincha of Shabbat recites two weekday tefillot on 
Saturday night -- even though the source of the obligation (for one of the
two amidot) derives from Shabbat and not chol, so too one says a "weekday"
birkat ha-mazon (provided that Shabbat is already over) even if it comes 
about because of a Shabbat meal. This opinion seems to be shared by the
Hilkhot Gedolot, Orchot Chayim, Meiri, and others. Obviously, one must
first ascertain if in fact Shabbat is already "over", and to resolve this
one must examine the issues of zemanei ha-yom and tosefet Shabbat (i.e. the
mitzva(?) to extend the Shabbat). These are both important issues which
deserve a complete treatment of their own.

The Shulchan Arukh seems to contradict itself in this regard. In Laws
of Birkat ha-Mazon (O.C. 188?), the Mechaber writes that we always follow
the time at which the *beginning* of the meal was eaten (batar hatchala
azlinan). However, in the Laws of Shabbat (O.C. 271) concerning a case in
which a meal was eaten on Friday but as the meal ended Shabbat began,
one nevertheless recites "retze". The Rema, noting the discrepancy, takes 
issue with the latter ruling, and suggests that mention of Shabbat be 
omitted. [Some support the Mechaber by saying that one always inserts
references to "kedusha" (i.e. Shabbat or Yom Tov) whenever it may be somewhat 
justifiable.] The Rema in his Teshuvot seems to qualify his position. If I
recall correctly, he feels that some seudot are not "strong" enough to
cause the birkat ha-mazon that follows to include obligations that reflect
the beginning of the meal. 

I believe that it is the Taz who notes that there is no problem in making
references to two different days in the same prayer (as in Ms. Hornstein's
case wherein Rosh Chodesh falls on Saturday Night). He points to the 
kiddush for Yom Tov which fall on Saturday night (e.g. Pesach this year
-- cf. Lou Rayman's recent MJ posting) in which we say "YaKNeHaZ" (yayin,
kiddush, ner, havdala, zeman) -- that is, both kiddush for Yom Tov and
havdala for Shabbat are recited at the same time (in reverse chronological
order too!). Naturally, many disagree with the Taz -- and for a variety of
reasons, but it seems that the Rosh (see above) would argue that one should
say *only* ya`ale ve-yavo.

There are many other determining factors mentioned by the poskim; among them 
are davening, saying havdala, or counting the omer in the middle of the meal.
Any of these may have the effect of "terminating" the previous day as far as
birkat ha-mazon is concerned.

Two popular practices (in the spirit of "yere Elokim yetze et kulam") are to 
complete the meal and say birkat ha-mazon *before* dark (perhaps before sunset)
and therefore say only retze or to be sure to eat a piece of bread after dark
and then say both retze and ya`ale ve-yavo. A number of years ago, Purim fell
out on Saturday night, and I heard a Rosh Yeshiva say (aloud) both Retze and 
Al ha-Nissim  during birkat ha-mazon following se`uda shelishit. 

As usual, CYLOR.
							Larry Teitelman


End of Volume 11 Issue 43