Volume 11 Number 46
                       Produced: Thu Jan 27 23:08:56 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Birkat Hamazon at Seudah Shlishit
         [Danny Nir]
Definition of "Rov"
         [Harry weiss]
Job Opportunity in Rehovot, Israel
         [Safran Marilyn]
Length of Services
         [Meylekh Viswanath]
Medical Ethics and Halachah
         [Mark Lowitz]
Men setting up kiddush
         [Aleeza Esther Berger]
Mormon software
         [Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank]
         [Michael Shimshoni]
Refuah Shelamah
         [Steve Roth]
Repeating words in davening
         [Lawrence J. Teitelman ]
Traveling on Shabbos
         [Jan David Meisler]
Which Blessing?
         [Lon Eisenberg]


From: Danny Nir <danny@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:53:11 -0500
Subject: Birkat Hamazon at Seudah Shlishit

Susan Hornstein asks what does one say for Birkat Hamazon at Seudah
Shlishit on Shabbat after Tzeit.  Particularly, what if the following
day is Rosh Chodesh (Sunday)?

  Gedalya Berger responds with the answer that in his Shul, challah is
passed around, so that everyone eats a Kazait.  In this manner, they can
say Ya'aleh Veyavo.

  From personal experience at the Talner Rebbe (Rabbi Twersky of
Boston), I know that BOTH Retzei and Ya'aleh Veyavo are recited at
Seudah Shlishit, even if the last morsel of Challah eaten was prior to

Danny Nir                                              Meyad Computers
<danny@...>                                         Moshav Ya'ad
Tel:972-4-909966                                           D.N. Misgav
Fax:972-4-909965                                   Haifa, Israel 20155


From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry weiss)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:16:54 
Subject: Definition of "Rov"

First of all Mazal Tov to Avi and Carolynn on their engagement and to
those other MJers with upcoming Simchas.

[I'll use as the context to thanks to all those that have sent Carolynn
and I mazal tov wishes. Avi]

In MJ 11-39 Moshe Goldberg writes that "Only recently was the meaning of
"rov" changed to mean "most"."  Though I do not know whether in the
context of Haman's sons "rov" means many or most, I do know that Rov has
meant the majority for many years.

In laws of Kashrut there is the principle of "bitul b'rov"
(nullification through the majority).  In this case Rov is definitely a
majority and not just a large quantity.  (Whether Rov in a specific case
refers to a simple majority or one to sixty is a separate issue.)



From: <marilyn@...> (Safran Marilyn)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 08:20:50 IST
Subject: Job Opportunity in Rehovot, Israel

Computer Science Senior Q/A and Testing Job Opportunity in Rehovot, Israel

Ubique Ltd.
Gruss Bldg.,  Weizmann Institute Campus, Rehovot 76100, Israel
Email:  <udi@...>
Phone: +972-8-343327  Fax: +972-8-469711

Ubique Ltd. is a start-up company developing inter-personal
communication and collaboration software for the Internet market.   

Senior Q/A Engineer to design and lead Q/A and Testing in the company. 

Extensive experience in Q/A and in Unix, Windows, and internetworking.
Familiarity with advanced automated testing tools and methodologies.


From: <VISWANATH@...> (Meylekh Viswanath)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 14:53:14 -0500
Subject: Length of Services

Eva David is critical of Freda Birnbaum's feeling that some shakharis
services on shabes are too long.  She says that one is obligated to daven
properly.  I agree with her on the latter point, but I would like to
point out that not everybody that wants to finish davening quickly,
does so to be able to run home.  For example, I prefer the hashkome
minyan because it is short, and then I can go attend a shiur (which,
frankly, for me is the highlight of my shabes), which is also a mitsve
--ve  talmud torah kneged kulam. [And is a quite good shiur, as I go to
it whenever I am in Teaneck. P.S. I'll be there Feb 12. Mod.]



From: <mlowitz@...> (Mark Lowitz)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 23:13:32 -0500
Subject: Medical Ethics and Halachah

My step-daughter [11th grade, Torah Academy of Phil] is working on a 
paper on the subject of medical ethics and halachah. I wonder if
anyone could offer her comments, info, ... 

Thanks in advance.
Mark Lowitz


From: Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 14:49:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Men setting up kiddush

Well, whether you think it would be preferable for women to set up kiddush
would depend on whether you think men have a greater obligation in communal
prayer than women.  This was discussed a while back on mail-jewish.  I
maintained, based on the language of the Shulkhan Aruch that seems to
mandate a preference for communal prayer, but did not obligate any pariticular
individual in communal prayer, that women and men are equal in this 
regard (beyond an obligation on the community to *have* a minyan, which
requires just 10 men).  Thus if there are still 10 men left praying it
wouldn't make one bit of difference who sets up kiddush.  


From: Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank <Alan.Cooper@...>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 17:18:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Mormon software

Re: Mike Gerver's posting on the use of Mormon software.  I thought that
the halakha was perfectly clear to the effect that a Jew can derive no
benefit from any implement that has been used for avodah zarah.  In his
commentary on last week's Torah portion, Eliezer Ashkenazi uses that
principle to explain why Pharaoh's horses had to be drowned (Ma'asei
Mitsrayim, ch.  23): "Since Pharaoh had made himself into a god, God
cast all of his servants and horses, who were in the service of
idolatry, into the sea."  See Avodah Zarah 49b, and throw the Mormon
software into the Yam ha-melach (Salt Sea).

Alan Cooper


From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 10:55:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Question

 Mordecai Kornfeld brings a question:

>   R. Lopianski of Yeshiva Ohr Yerushalayim asked me an interesting question:
>           R. Lopianski's question: Rashi tells us (22:30) that a dog
>   received the "terefot" in exchange for keeping quiet when the Jews left
>   Egypt. But we find that Moshe informed Paraoh in advance that "No dog
>   will bark at the Jews, in order that the distinction between the Jews
>   and others should be made clear to everyone" (11:7), so the dogs had
>   their mouths muzzled, and didn't seem to keep quiet "of their own
>   volition"! Why then did they receive reward for this?

It is not just  because I am a dog owner that I  fail to see the logic
of that question and I side firmly  with Rashi on that.  I also do not
see  what is  meant  by "their  mouths muzzled",  if  that meant  real
muzzling or a spiritual one.

Anyhow, just two verses (11,5) earlier, Pharaoh is  informed about the
death of the firstborn, and later God clearly states that Pharaoh will
not listen.  So  why can a "heart muzzled" Pharaoh  be punished, while
one begrudges the dogs their well deserved reward?

 Michael Shimshoni


From: <rot8@...> (Steve Roth)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 11:28:04 CST
Subject: Refuah Shelamah

Fellow MJer's: Please daven for a refuah shelamah for my mother (and
grandmother of MJ'er Yechiel Pisem)- her name is Chaya Miriam Hinda bas
Sora Rivka. Thank you.
Steve Roth, MD; Anesthesia & Critical Care; Univ of Chicago
312-702-3535 (FAX)


From: Lawrence J. Teitelman  <csljt@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 13:12:52 EST
Subject: Repeating words in davening

Danny Geretz raises an old question about the appropriateness of repeating
words during davening. Someone with a similar concern asked a rebbe in a 
yeshiva that I attended if repeating the stanzas of "E-l adon" during
shacharit shel Shabbat constituted a hefsek [interruption]. The rebbe thought
for a minute and said, "It's probably a hefsek if you say it (even) once.!"

Larry Teitelman


From: "J.Leci" <te2005@...>
Date: 27 Jan 94 11:02:53 GMT0BST
Subject: Shemita

I heard today from Israel radio that the Rabaanut has allowed the JNF
to plant trees in the Shmita year. Can anyone provide me with info on
this Heter?



From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:57:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Traveling on Shabbos

I recently was involved in a discussion about travelling on Shabbos.  What is
the issue of a person travelling, in particular in a car, on Shabbos.  Is
the issue opening up the door and turning on the light?  Starting the spark to
get the car going?  Or is it just the issue of riding in the car?  What is the
basis for the issur of travelling?  Part of the questions that came up dealt
with a person living in a completely not-Jewish area.  If there was a non-Jew
going in the same direction as the Jew wanted to, and the non-Jew opened and
closed the car door for the Jew, would the Jew be permitted to go along?  Also,
what about if a person followed Rabbeinu Tam's opinion on when Shabbos ended,
and the rest of the community followed by the Gra (which is earlier), could the
person who followed by Rabbeinu Tam time travel in a car while he still held it
was Shabbos, but the other person did not?
If these are issues that were already brought up, please just direct me to the
place where I could find them.  Thank you for your help!



From: eisenbrg%<milcse@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 05:07:44 -0500
Subject: Which Blessing?

If one wants to eat something, but can't eat it without the help of some
bread (in the Mishnah Brurah, salty fish is used as an example, but
perhaps a better example for us would be humous or tehina), then the
bread is considered insignificant ("tofel") to the item truly desired,
so the blessing is made over the desired item (and there is no need to
wash for "hamozei", even if a large quantity of bread is consumed).  I
assumed that the blessing upon finishing ("brakha aharonah") would also
be for the item which was desired, but was unable to find this in the
Mishnah Brurah.

Can anyone help me?


End of Volume 11 Issue 46