Volume 12 Number 56
                       Produced: Wed Apr 13 23:40:38 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Baruch Goldstein
         [Irwin Keller]
Gedalya Berger's post
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Hebron and Afula Atrocities
         ["Irwin H. Haut"]
Hebron Massacre
         [Ron Katz]
Heron Massacre
         [Yapha Schochet]
Hevron Massacre
         [Gary Bauman"]


From: mljewish (Avi Feldblum)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 23:39:44 -0400
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

I am back in swing and trying to work down the backlog of articles that
came in. Between my getting married, Pesach and then getting sick for a
couple of days after Pesach, my inbox here climbed up above 300
messages. I'm back down in the 200 point, but I will clearly need to
keep things going out at the rate of 4-5 mailings per day.

The Hebron issue is clearly one that is generating comments. That is
fine, but I would ask that people please read what they write carefully.
We would like to keep this discussion away from the "political" issues
involved, i.e. giving us your opinion of the Israeli government. So lets
try and keep things on a somewhat calm plane. I think that several of
the postings have been quite excellent, and I just ask everyone to read
what they write carefully before they send it out to me.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: Irwin Keller <keller@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 19:36:32 -0400
Subject: Baruch Goldstein

Boruch Goldstein's actions represent a dilemma in the minds of many
observant Zionist Jews. Anyone who has been involved in Kibush
HaAretz(conquering of the Land of Israel) as the West Bank settlers, and
particularly so those in Hebron are participating in a great Mitzvah at
the expense of financial risk and losses(ie opportunity cost, decrease
real estate values, etc.) and at the expense of great psychological
stress and strain.

In my very humble opinion, the actions of Boruch Goldstein were
nevertheless deplorable, reprehensible, and created a great Chilul
Hashem(desecration of G-d's name). The Rabin Government was right to
condemn these actions although I would not argue that the Governments
statements should have been much more measured than they were. We can
argue and discuss to what extent these should have been edited,
tailored, etc. But that is not my point.

There is no discussion -and certainly no surprise- that Yasser Arafat,
Hanan Ashrawi, or whomever you want to cosider as the legitimate(Ha!
Ha!) voice of the Palestinians has not responded in kind with
condemnation now (vis-a-vis Afula) nor ever in the past, nor in my
pessimistic opinion in the near future (G-d forbid). Condolence cards
Mr. Arafat are not only not enough, but represent the insult of either a
nonsincere or spineless leader. But that is also not my point.

The point is that Dr. Goldstein not only desecrated the name of G-d on
that sad Purim day, but that he also was the cause if not only the
catalyst that caused or precipitated the unfortunate events at Afula and
others.In that regard alone Dr. Goldstein violated at the very least one
of the Halachot(Divine Laws).

        In the Rambam's Mishne Torah, Nezikin;Hilchot Rotzeach, Chapter1, #16
        "One who causes the loss of the life of a Jew is as one who has caused
        the destruction of all the world." Boruch Goldstein caused or
        precipitated the loss of Jewish Life. 

There are probably several other Halachot that were violated, but I
leave that to our esteemed Rabbis to expound upon. I only want to add
that if any of Baruch Goldsteins friends had knowledge ahead of time of
his contemplated actions, they too are responsible for the aftermath and
are therefore specifically in violation of some of these Halachot.



From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:17:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Gedalya Berger's post

Regarding Gedalya Berger's post about Baruch Goldstein:

Al Tadin Et Chavercha Ad Shetagia Limkomo.

Noone thinks that what Baruch Golstein did was intelligent.
But, let us remember that he was probably quite unstable psychologically 
after the mureders of his friends the Lapids, etc.
Also, the terrorism that is going on now is in NO WAY the fault of Baruch 
Goldstein. IF there would be a decent Defense Minister in Israel he would 
get the situation under control. Hamas is not killing people because of 
Baruch Goldstein -- they were killing people before as well...

Please do not attack the dead... they have no way to defend themselves.

And yes, let us remember Baruch for the good he did as a doctor, etc. and 
not for the act he did while he was (probably) a shoteh zmani...

   Begin   |  Joseph (Yosef) Steinberg      |              <steinber@...>
 M'chakeh  |  972 Farragut Drive            |  <jstein@...>
 L'Rabin!! |  Teaneck, NJ 07666-6614        |               <jsteinb@...>
  OMER 17  |  United States of America      |       Tel: +1-201-833-YOSI(9674)


From: "Irwin H. Haut" <0005446733@...>
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 94 22:51 EST
Subject: Hebron and Afula Atrocities

I am, for one, glad that the issue of the activities in Hebron, of late, has
at last been raised. In today's New York Times there is a fitting
description of the world as it presently stands. SHEER MADNESS. 
Is it not sheer madness when people attempt to justify the massacre of
people at prayer?
Can one seriously urge that we can not judge the activities of the
perpetrator when the Torah says, "you shall not murder?
Was this not murder in Hebron?
Was there a trial of the victims?
Was there hasra'ah required by the Halacha?
We are not helping the situation when, as happened today in Flatbush, a
Rabbi declared from a pulpit that the peace process should be stopped. 
And then what, more killings, more murders, more victims, innocent and
Is killing the solution? No!
Is love the answer? Equally absurd!
The answer lies somewhere in between. 
And don't argue with me about Arafat's turning his back upon hearing of the
Afula atrocity. 
The answer, i suggest, is in the enlightened self-interest of the parties.
In the final analysis peace is in the best interests of Jews and Arabs in
Eretz. Peace will be attained ONLY with the help of G-D, GIVEN THE CHANCE,

Rabbi Irwin H. Haut


From: katz%<milcse@...> (Ron Katz)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 04:03:22 -0400
Subject: Re:  Hebron Massacre

I for one was content with the silence on mail.jewish (up until
recently) on the Hebron Massacre.  This is because I feel it is really
impossible for us to judge Dr Goldstein on Halachik grounds.  Halacha is
more complex than simply pointing out that it is forbidden to murder
innocent gentiles (I don't mean to Ch"V insult those who posted the
aforementioned halacha).  One halachik argument, which surprizingly has
not yet been mentioned, is that of self-defence.  It is a FACT that Dr.
Goldstein was briefed as to the high probability of a large-scale
terrorist act on Purim in the Hebron area.  The hospitol in Bersheva was
also on high readiness.  Even without that warning, it is halachikly
possible to consider the population in Hebron as our enemy (and not
innocent people) at which point any attack on them could be

I do NOT want to get into the argument about whether to consider all
arabs in Hebron as our enemy and then justify attacking them.  I just
want to point out that this is a halachik possibility which perhaps
could be discussed in a halachik forum such as this by people
knowledgable in these halachot.  I personaly do NOT consider myself a
person to judge in these matters, and therefore I am not making a stand
and I'll probably not comment when and if such a discussion ensues.  I
think there are and were rabbis who might have approved such an act
under certain circumstances.Perhaps Rav Cahana Z"L, Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook
ZT"L, and Rav Dov Lior Shlita.  I say "perhaps" since there are
statements attributed to them indicated they might have so held.  Of
course, until a Rav comes out with a clear psak on the issue, we cannot

If the readers recall, some of the great poskim of our generation called
for the release the members of the jewish underground (Machteret) who
were accused of similar attacks against arabs 10 or so years ago.  Their
acts included firing on arab busses, and planning to blow up busses (the
exact details escape me).

If I recall correctly, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L was among those calling
for their release.  Now if these people were considered heinous
criminals, why would such great poskim come to their defence ?

Again today, on Memorial Day for our fallen soldiars, there was another
terrorist attack with a number of dead and wounded.

May G-d help us find a way to end this terror.

Ron Katz


From: Yapha Schochet <YAPHA@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 06:01:47 -0400
Subject: Heron Massacre

Marc Shapiro wrote:

> 	For the sake of the Lord, we dare not be silent, for we shall be
> called to account for the murderers in our midst and our own hands will
> soaked in innocent blood.

Of course there was nearly univeral condemnation of this act from all
parts of the politcial spectrum and from the religious establishment,
but it is important for individuals to speak up also.  On the day of the
massacre some friends and I decided on the necessity of saying something
whenever we hear it implied that Arabs are less then humman.  The
response is: "No, they are human beings and as such are tselem Elokim."
So far, I have been fortunate not to hear anyone trying to justify the
massacre. The worst I heard was, "Of course there's no justification but
with the current situation there you can sort of understand it."  To
this my response is: "I can't understand it at all. There can never be
any understanding or explanation for this evil action."  Perhaps if more
religious people would speak up, crises of faith such as the one Marc
Shapiro described could be prevented.  To prevent misunderstanding, I
think it important to add that while Goldstein may have been indirectly
responsible for the murder in Brooklyn and for the terrorism in Afula
and Ashdod, the blame falls on soley on the perpetrators, just as the
full blame for the Hebron massacre falls on Goldstein, whatever actions
he may have thought he was avenging.  I do not think that Marc Shapiro
meant to imply otherwise, but when discussing events of this kind, it is
important to be clear.



From: Gary Bauman" <GHB001@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:28:15 EST
Subject: Hevron Massacre

    I have been debating till now whether to enter this discussion. It 
seems that there are several important points to be made.

    Concerning me most are the euphemisms people have been using to 
describe these murders. Incident, bloodshed and many other words have 
been used for what we should all be calling murder. Whether we wish 
to search for reasons for these murders or not is a separate issue 
but we do need to be clear that this was an act of murder.

    From a halachic standpoint, several respondents quoted sources 
justifying what occurred. These included sources for behavior 
towards people under our control and in lands conquered during wars. 
One source (sorry I cannot quote it verbatim) mentioned killing 
people who we are controlling if they do not accept us. I have heard 
Rav Kook, the Chief Rabbi of Rechovot speak several times on the 
issues of Kedushat Ha'am (the sanctity of the people) and Kedushat 
Ha'aretz (sanctity of the land). In each of these instances he made a 
distinction of Yadenu Chazaka or Yadenu Lo Chazaka (when we are 
strong or when we are not strong, loosely translated). His opinion is 
that there is no doubt that in our time we are talking about a 
situation where Yadenu Lo Chazaka both for economic, political, 
religious and social reasons. In this case laws about subjugating 
people we have conquered, controlling the lands etc. are no longer 
valid. The sources quoted are operational when Yadenu Chazaka and we 
control our own destinies.

    I think these distinctions need to be kept in mind when quoting 
halachic sources to bolster one's argument.

Gary Bauman,D.D.S.
University of Maryland Dental School


End of Volume 12 Issue 56