Volume 12 Number 61
Produced: Fri Apr 15 8:53:49 1994
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chametz Owned by a Jew on Pesach
[Elie Rosenfeld]
Kosher for Pesach - Contains Kitniyos
[Daniel Geretz]
Kosher for Pesach Kitniyos
[Warren Burstein]
Qitniyot
[Joey Mosseri]
Sefardi minhagim (2)
[Fred E. Dweck, Bruce Krulwich]
Sephardic minhagim
[Anthony Fiorino]
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From: <er@...> (Elie Rosenfeld)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:15:07 -0400
Subject: Chametz Owned by a Jew on Pesach
In context of the stories about receiving gifts of chametz on Pesach,
how about those little boxes of cereal that sometimes come in the mail
as promotional gimmicks? One of them once came to us on Pesach (we were
away and didn't discover it until after Pesach). I called the 800
number for the cereal company to complain, and a few days later we got a
nice letter of apology from the company, along with a coupon for a free
box of cereal! They said they were sorry that the delivery disrupted
our holiday, but that they have little control over when the deliveries
take place.
On a practical note, what is the best option if you do accidently buy
real chametz from the "wrong" store after Pesach? Since it is forbidden
even to benefit from chametz owned by a Jew on Pesach, you are not
allowed to return it or even give it to gentiles as a gift (since you
thus benefit from their gratitude). Yet it seems a big waste (and thus
also a sin) to just throw it in the garbage or destroy it. What to do?
Elie Rosenfeld
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From: imsasby!<dgeretz@...> (Daniel Geretz)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 19:42:01 -0400
Subject: Kosher for Pesach - Contains Kitniyos
In v12n44, Marc Meisler asks about "kosher for Pesach, contains kitniyos"
products and if they are sold in the US.
I was curious about this very item and happened to bump into a Sephardic
individual last week and put this question to him. He said that, this
year, the OU put out a (quite extensive) list of products that contain
kitniyot but do not otherwise contain chometz from among all of the
products that are under their supervision (I guess they would have
access to this sort of information :). He said that, for instance,
Heinz catsup (ketchup?) was on the list (although, CYLSR next year to be
sure).
I got the impression that this was the first year that the OU did this
(or maybe it was the first year that he saw the list). I don't know if
any other Kashrut organizations publish a similar list.
Daniel Geretz
imsasby!<dgeretz@...>
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From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:31:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Kosher for Pesach Kitniyos
Nimrod Dayan writes (about those who eat kitniot outside of Israel):
>some families will buy rice that is usually kosher during the year, spread
>it over a clean new tablecloth and check through this rice anywhere form
>three to seven times, grain by grain to check for any stray grains of
>barley or wheat. It is a long process and so some people have just opted to
>buy the rice on the list.
The bag of rice that I bought in Israel after Pesach ("Orez Parsi
Klasi from Sugat) has a hashgacha that says (my translation) "Kosher
for Pesach 5754 for those whose custom it is to eat it. One must sort
it before Pesach".
I wonder if the rice on the lists is more certain to be free of wheat
or barley than the rice in Israel carrying a Pesach hashgacha.
None of this affects me personally, just wondering.
/|/-\/-\ If two half-slave-half-free people witness an ox
|__/__/_/ owned in partnership by a Jew and non-Jew gore a Coi
|warren@ bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org buried?
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From: <JMOSSERI@...> (Joey Mosseri)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 04:41:41 -0400
Subject: Qitniyot
Marc Meisler asks about Sefaradim whom eat qitniyot on Pesah, and how they
find kosher for passover products.
Well let me tell you I'm from the large Sephardic community in
Brooklyn,NewYork and for many years all we ate was whatever we found in the
supermarkets with the KP hekhsherim of the OU and such. But in addition we
always had rice. The rice would be bought before Pesah and meticulously
checked grain by grain to assure that no other grains are in there.
Some people would only check it once and some three times depending upon
their custom.
Now for the past few years we've been lucky enough to have rabbis of our
community check out other items with the help of rabbis from the OU and from
Lakewood,NJ.
The list that comes out for the community is quite impressive and none of
the items on the list will obviously say KP when purchased in the
supermarket.
Of course we permit all qitniyot so many items that many Ashkenazim would
think of as "pure" Hamess are in actuality only qitniyot.
For example , this years list included:
M&M'S (PLAIN,PEANUT)
GOOBERS
DIPSY DOODLES
PHILADELPHIA CREAM CHEESE
HEINZ KETCHUP
MAZOLA MARGARINE
MAZOLA CORN OIL
HELLMAN'S MAYONAISE
FRENCH'S MUSTARD
WISE POTATO CHIPS
BUMBLE BEE TUNA
This is a very small sample of items from the list and each year the list is
different depending upon what they were able to check out and clarify the
non-hamess status of.
Joey Mosseri
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From: Fred E. Dweck <71214.3575@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 04:03:27 -0400
Subject: Sefardi minhagim
In response to Elisheva Schwartz. She writes:
<<<1. It was maintained by one person that, according to Sefardi minhag,
one can eat parve cooked food with either basar or halav, _regardless_
of what pot it was cooked in. (?)>>>
That is true. See Shulhan Aruch, Yore Deah, Halachot basar be halab. "If
a person cooks a vegetable in a clean meat pot, he may eat that
vegetable with dairy." (Loose translation, from memory) The exact
address eludes me right now, but I will look it up and submit it if
someone else doesn't beat me to it.
<<<2. It was also put forth that the idea of hair covering for women is
an Ashkenazi humra being increasingly taken on by Sefardim (this
really made me stop, because my impression was that Sefardi practice
was stricter than Ashkenazi in this regard. Didn't Harav Ovadia Yosef
say that wigs were assur for Sefardi women? Leaving only scarves and
hats.)>>>
Yes! Harav Ovadia Yosef did say that wigs were assur for Sefardi women.
However the reason was not because of a humra. Rather it went to the
heart of the matter. Since a woman covering her head was for "tzniut"
(modesty) and so as not to attract other men, his reasoning was that a
wig does nothing to solve those two problems. Quite the contrary, some
wigs make a woman look much better than she would with her own hair.
That then stands in direct contradiction to the reason of the halacha,
and therefore, is properly forbidden, as it should be to all women who
cover their heads for "tzniut." It makes a mockery of the spirit of the
halacha, when a woman wears a wig that looks better than her own hair.
<<<4. That "glatt" was a strictly Ashkenazi idea, and that Sefardi
standards are less strict (again the reverse of what I thought. Don't
a lot of Sefardim eat only Beit Yosef?)>>>
Quite the contrary. Of course, all Sephradim SHOULD eat only glatt! To
put it very clearly and succinctly, When Harav Hagaon Ezra Attieh Z"l
(former Rrosh Yeshivah of Porat Yosef in Jerusalem) was asked about the
requirement for Sepharadim to eat glatt kosher, asked what that was.
When it was explained to him that it meant "Halak" his response was: Is
there any other kind of kosher? I think that expresses the Sephardic
point of view, perfectly.
Sincerely,
Fred E. Dweck
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From: Bruce Krulwich <krulwich@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:18:23 -0400
Subject: Sefardi minhagim
Elisheva Schwartz passed on several claims about Sefardi minhag:
> 1. It was maintained by one person that, according to Sefardi minhag,
> one can eat parve cooked food with either basar or halav, _regardless_
> of what pot it was cooked in. (?)
I believe that I have seen the issue addressed in the Shulchan Aruch by the
Mechaber, which would indicate that it's halacha for Sefardim. But I may be
remembering incorrectly.
> 2. It was also put forth that the idea of hair covering for women is an
> Ashkenazi humra being increasingly taken on by Sefardim (this really made me
> stop, because my impression was that Sefardi practice was stricter than
> Ashkenazi in this regard. Didn't Harav Ovadia Yosef say that wigs were
> assur for Sefardi women? Leaving only scarves and hats.)
The halacha is discussed explicitly by the Gemorah, and later by Rambam and
the Mechaber as being De'Oraisa (a Torah requirement) for a minimal covering
in a Reshus haRabim [public domain]. Again the discussion by Rambam and the
Mechaber would indicate that it's binding halacha for Sefardim.
> 3. And, that the issur of bishul akum (according to the Rama) is stamm a
> humra.
According to Kashrus magazine a while back, it's just the opposite: Sefardim
apparently do not have the kula [leniency] of relying on a machgiach lighting
a pilot light, and require that a reliable Jew actually be there for the
cooking. I don't know if the mention in Kashrus mag. was referring to all
Sefardim or just a particular sub-group, but it seemed fairly clear on the
subject.
> 4. That "glatt" was a strictly Ashkenazi idea, and that Sefardi standards
> are less strict (again the reverse of what I thought. Don't a lot of
> Sefardim eat only Beit Yosef?)
Yep, they do. The Bais Yosef is R' Yosef Karo a.k.a. the Mechaber, who is
generally taken as determining binding halacha for sefardim. Many sefardim I
know have the practice to accept Ashkenazic leniencies (e.g., non-Bais Yosef
meat) when eating at an Ashkenazic home, but nonetheless in general it would
seem that sefardim are the ones that are obligated to eat only Glatt meat (and
more strictly Glatt than most OU-Glatt meat at that).
Dov
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From: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 11:22:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sephardic minhagim
> 1. It was maintained by one person that, according to Sefardi minhag,
> one can eat parve cooked food with either basar or halav, _regardless_
> of what pot it was cooked in. (?)
I have seen this done many times in practice in the house of a good
friend, a very knowledgable Syrian. Apparently, the taam of basar or
chalav is "dead" after being "transfered" twice; ie, after cooking meat in
a pot (which causes a fleishige taam to enter the pot), one can then cook
parve food in that pot, which will receive from the pot a fleishige
taam, provided it is a ben yoma, within 24 hours of having had meat in it.
(By comparison, if one cooked milk in such a pot, then the meat taam would
enter the milk, creating a new treif taam, which would then enter the pot
once again. This is a new taam, and can still be transferred out of the
pot; ie, if one cooks parve food into this pot, it absorbs the treif taam
and consequently becomes treif, which is why one cannot eat cooked fish or
vegetables in a non-kosher restaurant.) However, this taam is "dead" and
cannot be transfered to any other food or pot. Thus, Sephardic practice
is to eat such food even with actual dairy products (and if the parve food
was cooked in a dairy pot, with meat products). Ashkenazic practice is
that one may eat such food off of dairy plates, but not with actual dairy
products.
> Didn't Harav Ovadia Yosef say that wigs were assur for Sefardi women?
> Leaving only scarves and hats.
More than that -- if I remember correctly, Rav Yosef holds that wigs are
prohibited for ALL Jewish women.
Eitan Fiorino
<fiorino@...>
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End of Volume 12 Issue 61
