Volume 12 Number 64
                       Produced: Tue Apr 19  7:47:01 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chumrot (2)
         [Zishe Waxman, Uri J Schild]
         [Harry Weiss]
Halacha and Chumra
         [Esther R Posen]
Last Mishnah in Horayot
         [Robert Klapper]
M&Ms and Skor bars in Canada (2)
         [Robert Rubinoff, Leah Waintman]
NonGlatt Pots
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Responsa on Nazis Converting to Judaism
         [Bobby Fogel]
Rick's Calendar Question
         [Mike Schwartz]


From: <waxman@...> (Zishe Waxman)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 18:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Chumrot

With respect to the recent postings reagrding "chumras", it might be
worth noting that at one point one used to speak about "Takanas Sofrim",
today however it is sometimes more appropriate to speak of "Takanas So

Zishe Waxman

From: <uri@...> (Uri J Schild)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 15:07:31 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: Chumrot

Seeing those chumrot, I can't but notice two things:

1. Didn't Havah accept the first chumrah in the history?  Don't we know
   what came out of that?

2. What are those "machmirim" going to say when their Day to respond to
   Hashem comes? "Yeah, we were sloppy in this, and we didn't do that,
   and we ignored what You requested us to do, but here - see, we took
   voluntarily what nobody needs and what You didn't ask us! Aren't we

Question 1: does observing something not commanded somehow "makes up"
	    for not doing what was in the order?

Question 2: Originally, "Glatt" was the meat, that was kosher
   	    "unquestionably" - the Rabbi just had to confirm this. WHile
	    "non-Glatt" was a case of doubt, where a Rabbi had to make a
	    decision, whether to pronounce this meat kosher, or not...
	    Clear so far. But - once the decree _is_ pronounced, must it
	    not be all the same, Glatt and non-Glatt? After all, there
	    are only Kosher and non-Kosher "positions, with no "shades"
	    whatsoever (a little Kosher, Kosher a lot, almost Kosher)?

Uri         <uri@...>      scifi!angmar!uri 	N2RIU


From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 09:37:43 
Subject: Glatt

There has been numerous discussions recently regarding relying on non
Glatt butchers and the problem of whether only Glatt butchers are
reliable.  I would like to address several issues in that regard.  For
all butchers, glatt and non glatt, a reliable Rabbinical supervision
should be requested.

Almost all glatt butchers have Orthodox Rabbinic supervision.  Many non
glatt have conservative or no Rabbinic supervision.  I personally have a
problem purchasing meat from a butcher who is not Shomer Shabbat even if
he has Orthodox supervision.  That is more of problem in the non Glatt
arena than the Glatt.  (I hear the situation may be different in the

Another major difference between Glatt and non Glatt in the current
market is the way the meat is delivered.  Almost all Glatt meat is
delivered to the butcher is cryovacced primal cuts.  The meat has
already been soaked and salted.  Most non Glatt is delivered in hanging
quarters, neither soaked or salted.  It must be ascertained that 72
hours have not passed since the meat was last washed.  Many non Glatt
butcher do not soak and salt unless requested to.  There are those who
will grind non soaked and salted meats.  This meat in permanently non

Because of the above many people who do not follow Glatt from a
philosophic point will only purchase Glatt.  (Incidentally, I remember
when I was a High School student in Mir, many years ago, my Rebbe
referred to Glatt as an unnecessary Chumrah.  How times have changed.)



From: <eposen@...> (Esther R Posen)
Date: 14 Apr 94 13:19:06 GMT
Subject: Halacha and Chumra

Surprise surprise.  Believe it or not, there are many people who are
perfectly aware of the difference between halacha and chumra and choose
to follow a more stringent approach both inside and outside of their
homes.  There may be many "misguided" reasons that people choose to act
l'chumra but many of the people I know who choose the more stringent
path in many areas of their lives (i.e dress, food, entertainment etc.)
do so because they actually believe g-d will give them "extra credit".
It is entirely possible that they function at a higher level of "yirat
shomayim" (fear of heaven).

(I wrote the previous paragraph at the beginning of the MJ discussion on
glatt pots etc. (before Pesach) and have not been online since due to
Pesach and the birth of our son - Yehudah Posen.  After reading some of
the additional comments on the subject, I have a bit more to add.)

As our son was born on Friday, Shishi (the sixth day) shel Pesach. We
had a Sholom Zochor in Brooklyn on Shabbos of Pesach.  As I have
mentioned before, both my husband and I come from what would certainly
be considered "right wing yeshivish families".

Although both our families eat "gebrokts" we generally don't bake much
matzoh cake due to the expense (both our families eat only shumurah
matzoh and are present when the matzoh they consume on Pesach is being
baked.)  My husband bakes Shmurah Plus matzohs - don't ask me what the
plus is - its more of those horrible things called chumrot.  Suffice it
to say we bake mostly what we affectionately call "Potato Cake".

We Boruch Hashem have all kinds of friends and relatives.  Some came to
the Sholom Zochor and ate the home baked potato cake.  Some (my
husband's family) came and ate the potato cake and fruit salad they had
sent over earlier in the day - not for their own consumption - but it
was offered and properly identified by my mother so they agreed to eat
it.  Some people ate some fruit, nuts and wine.  Some would not even
drink from a paper cup in the house.  But the miracle of this all is

As a matter of fact my brother-in-law spent the first day of Pesach in
our house and brought food along from his parents house because my
mother uses many ingredients that his mother won't use on Pesach.  And
VOILA!! nobody was insulted.  (When it rained the first day of Pesach
and they could not walk back to his parents house before the seudah, we
discovered that he would eat chicken cooked in a never-used foil pan
with peeled potatoes and onions and NO SEASONING even if it was cooked
in our oven, so we made some!)

My mother has been known to cook three soups on Pesach - one with
kneidlach from my father's matzoh, one with kneidlach from my husbands
matzoh, and one - in a pot not used since last Pesach - with no
kneidlach at all.  And she was smiling throughout it all.

Pesach is a time when different minhagim and chumrot abound.  However,
they exist the rest of the year as well.  Do we all need to practice the
"lowest common denominator" of observance in order to avoid "sinat

May I suggest that while strutting around announcing your chumrot in a
derogatory manner is offensive, running around decrying all chumrot
(that one doesn't accept of course) as ridiculous and overdoing it is
quite defensive.

Esther Posen


From: <rklapper@...> (Robert Klapper)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:57:02 -0400
Subject: Last Mishnah in Horayot

Some postings ago Saul Djanogly correctly responded that the Shulkhan
Arukh and various commentaries thereon do cite the order of precedence
in this Mishnah with regard to lifesaving.  Rabbi Rackman's claim was
that no rishon interpreted it that way l'halakhah; the false implication
was my fault.  I'd appreciate comments on the accuracy of the limited
claim, since I haven't checked it.  Rabbi Rackman also notes, and a
quick check leads me to agree, that the Yerushalmi ad loc. clearly
relates the mishnah feeding rather than lifesaving, as it presents a
choice between "l'hachayot" a male, preferred by our mishnah, and
clothing a female, presumably with the same money.  I'd appreciate
references to articles and especially teshuvot on halakhic journalistic
ethics and the role of the press in a halakhic society (aside from
Shmirat HaLashon).  Thanks.


From: <Robert_Rubinoff@...> (Robert Rubinoff)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 14:41:28 -0400
Subject: Re: M&Ms and Skor bars in Canada

>> From: <dave@...> (David Sherman)
>> It's well known that Hersheys in the U.S. has a reliable hechsher (OU? I
>> forget which one), but does not put a hechsher symbol on its products.

This is changing; they are now putting an O-U on their products, but it
only shows up as they change the packaging.  I have seen O-U's on a
number of Hersheys products, but not all of them are marked yet.  (This
is actually very good, because over the last few years Hershey's has
started making a number of items that are *not* certified.  Currently
you need to check with the O-U to get a list of which things are okay.
Within another year or two, it should be possible to always tell by the
wrapper.  Of course, anything that *has* a hecsher is okay.)

>> M&Ms recently received approval from the OU.  M&Ms sold in Canada are
>> like Skor bars: packaged for sale here and marked "imported by", in this
>> case Effem Foods of Bolton, Ont.  I called their Consumer Affairs dept.
>> and was advised that the M&Ms sold in Canada are indeed from the U.S.
>> and are under the OU supervision.  They will show a hechsher once new
>> packaging is printed in the future, but (I was told) they are supervised
>> even without showing it yet.

Right; it's the same as with Hershey's.  I just today for the first time
saw a package of M&M's that had an OU-D on it.


From: Leah Waintman <cs932051@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 18:26:06 -0400
Subject: Re: M&Ms and Skor bars in Canada

Re David Sherman's posting about M&Ms and Skor bars in Canada:

The COR sends out regulat updates about Kashrus in Toronto. In a 
recent one they wrote that "all Hershey products make under Kosher
supervision must bear a COR when made in Canada and an OU when made in 
the US."
  On a recent trip to New York City I saw several different Hershey bars 
with an OU. 
  For more information call the COR (they are very nice and very helpful)
at 416-635-9550.


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 23:09:29 -0400
Subject: NonGlatt Pots

In MJ 12:62 Frank Silverman asks about not eating glatt out of
non-glatt pots. To the best of my understanding, after 24 hours of
non-use, a pot used for treif may, according to the strict letter of
the law, or, in Talmudic terminology, b'di'avad, be used for kosher.
We are practically universally machmir on this halacha and kasher even
after 24 hours have passed, but perhaps (although I have not
researched this and cannot deliver a competent report) for glatt in
non glatt pots certain leniencies apply when it is "Aino ben yomo".

In the same issue Danny Skaist says that kitniyos is a Takana. If
that is so, why does Rabbi Ovadia Yosef say one may be mattir neder
and dispense with it?


From: <bobby@...> (Bobby Fogel)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 18:58:42 +0000
Subject: Re: Responsa on Nazis Converting to Judaism

On the question of 
"Are you familiar with any Teshuvot on Nazis converting to Judaism."
by Barry Freundel. I have to respond with a quote from the gemarah
that my Rav always cites

"Bnay baneem shell Haman limdu Torah b'bnay brak"
"Haman's grandchildren TAUGHT torah in binay brak'

I am not sure exactly where the quote is but it does bare directly
on the above question.  What do you think?



From: Mike Schwartz <SCHWARTZ@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 14:26:30 -0600 (CDT)
Subject: Rick's Calendar Question

Rick's Calendar Question
     I have a friend ("rick%<nullset.uucp@...>") who has written
his "own calendar-generating program".  It is for the calendar used
in the US. (what is it called, 'Gregorian' calendar, or something?)
     Rick has already put in algorithms that can figure out when
certain days fall (Labor Day, Thanksgiving, etc.) that he wants to
be marked on there.  However, he would like to also label when some
Jewish holidays occur.
(However Rick is not Jewish - this might mean that the answers for him
could involve some terminology that might be unfamiliar to him).
     I told Rick that one possibility would be to find out what the 
real algorithm is, for converting dates from one calendar to another.
I suppose there may be books that cover that subject, and/or some
info available on the net somewhere.  However, neither I nor Rick
knew specifically where.

     The above mostly all happened several months ago, before
I found out about "mljewish".   <<which, I found out about, 
from Howard Pielet, (<pielet@...>) >>.
     Any advice?


End of Volume 12 Issue 64