Volume 13 Number 2
                       Produced: Fri May  6 16:10:05 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Allegory and Interpretation
         [Ezra Dabbah]
Daughters of the late Prof. Moshe Shulwass
         [Marc Shapiro]
Davening when Making Early Shabbat
         [Hillel Markowitz]
         [Ron Katz]
Goldstein, Philistines, and Palestinians
         [Sam Saal]
Haftarah from a Klaf (Parchment)
         [Gerald Sacks]
Hypothetical Killing Question
         [Larry Israel]
Misquotes of Tanach in Hazal
         [Moshe J. Bernstein]
Prayer and Eating
         [Moshe Kahan]
Retroactive Prayer
         [Frank Silbermann]
Sixties in YU (fwd)
         [Aharon Tzvi HaLevi]
The Death of Hitler (Y"S)
         [Victor Miller]
Yerushalmi on Peace Offerings
         [Mechael Kanovsky]


From: Ezra Dabbah <ny001134@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 19:04:33 -0500
Subject: Allegory and Interpretation

In MJ V 12 #79 Sam Gamoran is worried about "anything goes" in
interpretation. My view which was published last week in response to
Yitzchok Alderstein comments, was answered by Yitzchok Alderstein
correctly that some parts of the Torah should be taken allegorically.
Many people like to site the "70 interpretations" phrase to disprove
allegory. Does anyone out there know all 70?

Ezra Dabbah  


From: Marc Shapiro <mshapiro@...>
Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:45:57 -0400
Subject: Daughters of the late Prof. Moshe Shulwass

Does anyone know where the daughters of the late Prof. Moshe Shulwass of
Chicago can be found? Does anyone know who might be able to help me
locate them? All help would be greatly appreciated.
						Marc Shapiro


From: hem%<melech@...> (Hillel Markowitz)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:28:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Davening when Making Early Shabbat

From: <rotha@...> (Arthur Roth)

> The basic halacha is as Uri states, i.e., mincha and ma'ariv must be
> davened in separate zemanei tefilah (either mincha before plag and
> ma'ariv after plag, or waiting until after sunset to daven ma'ariv).
> My understanding is, though, that a minyan has the privilege of
> overriding this halacha due to issues of tircha d'tzibura (wasting the
> community's time) and kavod hatzibur (the honor of the congregation),
> and that many minyanim exercise this privilege by davening both mincha
> and ma'ariv between plag and sunset on Fridays.  On other days this is
> not possible, as the earliest time for ma'ariv does not arrive until
> sunset even if mincha is davened before plag.  The practical

In the summer, our shul davens at a specific time, chosen so that mincha
falls out before plag and maariv after plag.  However, since there is a
machlokes between the Magen Avrohom and the Vilna Gaon (I think, this is
from memory) as to when plag occurs, when the Vilna Gaon's time (which I
believe is the one usually used) comes out too late to continue, our rav
switches the calculation to use the Magen Avrohom's calculation (though
I may have the names reversed).  As a result, during the first and last
part of the summer we can start mincha at 7:15 P.M., while in the middle
we are going to start at 6:45 P.M.

As I said these times are chosen so that we can straddle plag without
too much difficulty while still using a "standard" time rather than
changing by a couple of minutes each week.

Our shul schedule also shows the earliest and latest possible times to
light the candles so that we can make whatever arrangements we may need.
This goes according to Rav Moshe Feinstein's (Z"TZL) psak (ruling) that
whenever the community sets up a time for "convenience" (as here in the
summer) an individual can start shabbas at any time within the limits
rather than being forced to use the time chosen by the community.

It is amusing to see some people driving around taking care of last
minute errands while others are walking home from shul (though it is
completely legitimate).

Hillel Markowitz      new net address pending


From: katz%<milcse@...> (Ron Katz)
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 02:02:40 -0400
Subject: Fender-Bender

I have a halachik (moral) question regarding a fender-bender car
accident.  I know this list is not meant for psak halacha, and I am
pursuing asking a rav.

Situation:  The bumper of my car is made of plastic (it may have some
   stronger material under it, but I don't know).  Anyway it cracks
   easily and it is very expensive to replace (this is Israel).  I cracked
   the bumper quite a while ago, and did not bother replacing it, due
   to the expense, and b/c the damage is only cosmetic.

   A few days ago, someone crunched the same section of the bumper while
   trying to back into a parking space.  The bumper is more scratched 
   than it was, perhaps more cracked, but otherwise not much different.
   The person, not knowing the bumper was cracked already, is willing to
   pay and is waiting for a claim from us.

Question:  I don't know how to look at the situation.  Do I look at
   the actual damage (as we would in the talmud) and say that the bumper
   is now worth $50 less than before so that is the damage, or do we say
   that the common practise is that a person who damages a car pays for the 
   complete repair (through insurence) regardless of the previous condition of
   the particular car part.    Normally, halacha does not let a person
   benefit more than he is damaged.

Has anyone ever investigated such a case.



From: Sam Saal <SSAAL@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 08:15:00 PDT
Subject: Goldstein, Philistines, and Palestinians

In mj 12#84 Zishe Waxman (<waxman@...>) wrote A Story of Two 

>This is all very violent stuff. However, aside from the settler+s
>reaction, we didn+t find the local Rabbinate lining up to condemn this
>Jew. In fact, in the written record recalls a prophecy that Samson will
>+begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines+ The details of
>the story are found in the Book of Judges, chapters 13-16, the
>commentators there, and the g+marot and medrashim that they cite.

The one problem I have with this analogy is that it is wrong to equate or 
imply the equation of Palestinians with the Philistines.  The vast majority 
of Palestinians are far immigrants to this piece of land and cannot trace 
their ancestry to the Philistines.  The Palestinians have been trying to 
portray themselves as descendants of the Philistines in an attempt to make 
their claim to the land as long lived as that of the Jews.

Because this is political/historical, further elucidation is inappropriate 
in this mailing list.  If you want some details and maybe even some sources, 
email me.

Sam Saal

[As Sam says, we are keeping this as a-political as possible. I thank
Sam for his very mild worded response, that covers the same points that
some other more harshly/politically worded replies did. Mod.]


From: Gerald Sacks <sacks@...>
Date: Fri, 6 May 94 11:17:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Haftarah from a Klaf (Parchment)

David Sherman points out that reading the haftarah from claf prevents
many people from receiving maftir.  In my regular shul, where the
haftarah is read from claf, the maftir doesn't usually do it.  He just
says the brachos, and someone who has prepared it does the actual


From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@...>
Date: Wed, 04 May 94 08:35:30 +0300
Subject: Hypothetical Killing Question

As we have recently read in the discussion about abortion, a gentile does
not have permission to kill in defense of life. Now comes an
interesting question. A gentile is about to be murdered. He can only
prevent his own murder by killing the attacker in self-defense. If he
does this, however, he would himself be subject to the death penalty,
as he does not have permission to kill to save a life.

Similarly, if a Jew were about to be murdered and the only way that this
good gentile could save the Jew's life would be to kill the attacker, then
the Jewish court would sentence this person to death for killing.

Is anything wrong with this logic? It certainly seems to lead to
strange results.


From: Moshe J. Bernstein <mjbrnstn@...>
Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:35:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Misquotes of Tanach in Hazal

This is an issue which has a fascinating history; cf. for example tosafot 
on shabbat 55b d.h. ma'aviram ketiv and R. Akiva Eiger's comment ad loc 
in Gilayon Hashas.  The fullest recent treatment of the topic is the 
article by Yeshayahu Maori in the Memorial Volume for Moshe 
Goshen-Gottstein where he discusses, inter alia, the way in which 
rabbinic scholars through the ages have dealt with the "problem"

moshe bernstein


From: Moshe Kahan <kahan@...>
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:10:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Prayer and Eating

As far as eating before prayer goes it was the Chassidishe minhag that 
tea and cake was acceptable before Shacharis. Usually this mini meal 
would occur right after going to the mikvah. I could only surmise that 
they felt having your stomach growling throughout davening was not 
conducive to kavanah (concentration). 	
	>>How much prayer is needed before eating?
There is a discuusion in the Shoot Shaages Aryeh whether the prohibition 
of eating extends to Musaf or not. He wants to prove that it does by the 
fact that if it didn't then Kohanim could perform Nesiat Kapayim 
(Priestly Benedictions). He ends off that this is not a good proof but 
concludes through other sources that Musaf is required before eating is 
permissable. However presuambly there are other opinions. Special note 
should be given to Rosh HaShono where many Batei Knesiyot daven beyond 
Chatsot (midday) and therefore the congreants would run into the 
prohibition of fasting on a Yom Tov. Therefore it became a minhag to make 
a kiddush and eat something before Musaf despite the shita that such 
eating would normally be prohibited.
Moshe Kahan


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:46:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Retroactive Prayer

Suppose a supermarket gives me a card with a spot to rub, which will
expose a message telling me whether or not I have won a prize.  Is it
permissible to pray that my card should be a winner?

Some might say no, the card already says whatever it says, and I should
not pray that G-d should change history.

But what if I ask G-d to _change_ my card to a winning ticket (assuming
it is not a winner already).  Is it not permitted to pray for a miracle?

Or should I assume that G-d has chosen, for whatever reasons, to do His
work _within_ the laws of nature, and refrain from asking him to violate
these laws?

In other words, how does changing the past differ from any other
violation of natural law?

Frank Silbermann	<fs@...>
Tulane University	New Orleans, Louisiana  USA


From: Aharon Tzvi HaLevi <yolkut@...>
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 21:05:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sixties in YU (fwd)

I am finishing a paper on the sixties in Yeshiva University. Anyone who
was in YU in the sixties and especially those who were involved in
prtest movements: if you could send me a discussion of the following
topics as soon as possible (preferably before Rosh Hodesh Sivan, but 
later if necc.) , it would be greatly appreciated. 
These are the issues i hope to deal with:1. Involvement of YC/SCW
students in struggles for Civil rights, Vietnam, reaching out into general
US society etc. 2.) Involvement of YC/SCW students in the counter culture
3. Involvement of YC/SCW students in specifically jewish causes with
techniques of other general 60smovements: Israel, Soviet Jewry, JDL 4.
involvement of YC?SCW students in specific YU causes using techniques of
campus unrest: secularization, Belfer etc. 5.ATtitudes and involvemenrt
to all of the above by the following: 1. The Rav Zatzal 2. RAv Aharon
Lichtenstein 3. Rabbi Yitz Greenberg 4. Rabbi Louis Bernstein 5. Any
others (specifically Roshei Yeshiva) who had strong opinions and
influence on students 6. attitude of administration to student activism
7. the general tenor of the times in Yu.
PLEASE, anyone with any perspective on these events is greatly encouraged
to write me at <yolkut@...>
Daniel A HaLevi Yolkut


From: Victor Miller <victor@harder>
Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 13:08:22 -0400
Subject: The Death of Hitler (Y"S)

On Sunday, I happened to be looking at one of those columns entitled
"This day in history".  It pointed out that Hitler (Y"S) presumably
killed himself on April 30, 1945.  His death was certainly a great
occasion for the Jewish people (just as Haman's death was).  In the case
of Haman, we remember it every year in the Megillah reading (of course
we have the Mitzvah of hearing the Megillah, but we certainly remember
it in other ways too).  Should the death of Hitler also be commemorated
as a great deliverance for the Jewish people?

		Victor Miller


From: <KANOVSKY@...> (Mechael Kanovsky)
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 16:42:26 -0400
Subject: Yerushalmi on Peace Offerings

On the three conditions for peace Yisrael Medad forgot to mention what
the terms were for accepting a peace offering from the enemy. The terms
were that they would be woodcutters and waterbearers i.e. be compleatly
subservant to the jews. It seems that Rabin is ignorant of that

mechael kanovsky


End of Volume 13 Issue 2