Volume 13 Number 82
                       Produced: Mon Jun 27 18:55:00 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

"Minhagim" for starting/ending times of Shabbat
         [Joseph Greenberg]
Ashkenaz/Sefard Pronunciation.
         [Pinchus Laufer]
Brachot on Tzitzit (2)
         [Yehoshua, Yechiel Pisem]
Death of Miriam
         [Zev Jacobson]
G'neivas Daas (Theft of Attitude)
         [Sam Juni]
Hebrew wordprocessors
         [Chaya Gurwitz]
Kamatz Katan and other dikduk problems
         [Yechezkel Schatz]
Ketubah Writing Programs
         [David Neustadter]
Modern hebrew pronounciation
         [Cheryl Hall]
Restaurants open on Shabbat
         [Moshe Linzer]
sim shalom
         [Jerry B. Altzman]
         [Anthony Fiorino]
Toveling of Bottles
         [Ari Shapiro]


From: Joseph Greenberg <jjg@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 14:36:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "Minhagim" for starting/ending times of Shabbat

I realize that this is not the place to request a psak, so please bear in 
mind that I am not asking for one.
  I am involved in testing a program (written by a non-Jew) that will 
include the ability to show on a calendar the starting and ending times 
of Shabbat. He already has  the algorithm for sunrise/sunset. What are 
the major (and perhaps minor) opinions on the number of minutes before 
sunset that we start Shabbat (I seem to recall that in Yerushalyim 
Shabbat is started _before_ 18 mins before sunset), and the number of 
minutes after sunset that we end Shabbat.
  If this could be reported in a simple tabular format (ie., 
source/posek, starting pre-minutes, ending post-minutes), that would be 
great, if the data lends itself to this format.


From: <plaufer@...> (Pinchus Laufer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 13:11:12 -0400
Subject: Ashkenaz/Sefard Pronunciation.

In scanning my bookshelf I came across an article by Rabbi Eli Turkel
(Journal of Halacha & Contemporary Society, Vol 18 , Fall 1989) entitled
"Variations in Sephardi and Ashkenazi Liturgy, Pronunciation, and

This article considers the permissibility of changing between rituals.

In Section V. (Changes in Pronumciation) he states that R. Yaakov Emden
(1697-1776) "complains that Sephardim do not distinguish... between a
tzere and a segol"

So it seems that this is not a new problem!



From: <jem@...> (Yehoshua)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 11:53:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Brachot on Tzitzit

<warren@...> (Warren Burstein) wrote:

>why the bracha for a tallit katan is the passive "al
>mitzvat tzizit" and the brach for a tallit gadol is the active
>"l'hitatef batzitzit".  Isn't the same mitzvah being done in both

Baruch she'kivanta! The Gaon in fact holds that the blessing for
both the tallit gadol and the tallit katan is "l'hitatef batzitzit."


From: Yechiel Pisem <ypisem@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 11:54:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Brachot on Tzitzit

In response to Warren's posting about Tzitzis:

Try to translate the 2 Brachos.  "Al Mitzvas" is "for the Mitzvah" and 
"Le'hisatef" is "to enwrap in".  By the large Tallis, even I put it over 
my head after that B'racha.  (Most Bar Mitzvah boys don't wear Talleisim 
until they get married.  Those that do because of Minhag don't wear the 
Tallis over their heads at all exccept when saying the Bracha.)  Why the 
Tallis is worn over the head is a separate issue.

Kol Tuv,
Yechiel Pisem


From: Zev Jacobson <mj@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 19:33:37 +0100
Subject: Death of Miriam

Why did Miriam not merit to enter the Land of Israel?
Zev Jacobson


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 08:51:47 -0400
Subject: G'neivas Daas (Theft of Attitude)

   A recent posting uses the construct of G'neivas Daas inappropriately.
I am not referring to the posting specifically, since the reference was
only an incidental aside to the central idea discussed.

  My understanding of the term is that it is subsidiary to the
prohibition against theft of material possesions. As such, the idea the
it pertains to deception seems to belie the classification, since there
is no commonality between deception and theft.  Examples in the Talmud
of G'neivas Daas refer to instances where A deceives B into believing
that A went out of his way to do a special service for B, causing B to
be beholden to A.  Moreover, "theft" of inappropriate gratitude still
falls short of G'neivas Daas; the focus of the prohibition is quite
specific and pragmatic. It involves actual theft of services; i.e.,
when B then proceeds to do an act of kindness or actually sends a gift
to A, it is only then that G'neivas Daas has occured.

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: <gurwitz@...> (Chaya Gurwitz)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 13:16:24 EDT
Subject: Hebrew wordprocessors

I have been told that there is a Hebrew add-on to Word for Windows.
Does anyone know if this is true, and if so, where to get it?

I am currently using Nota Bene and was considering switching over to
WordPerfect, but I understand that the Hebrew version of WordPerfect is
no longer being supported. If anyone has been using Hebrew WordPerfect,
please let me know what you think of it.       

Chaya Gurwitz

[Hebrew Word for Windows is available, but I think it requires that you
get Hebrew Windows as well. Both of the above, as well as several other
Hebrew word processors are available from Kabbalah software, one of our
mail-jewish readers, and accessable on the internet as
<kabbalah@...> They also have a catalog available in the
ftp area. Mod. ]


From: Yechezkel Schatz <lpschatz@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 05:37:16 -0400
Subject: Kamatz Katan and other dikduk problems

I enjoyed Bernie Horowitz's posting very much, and as a Bar Mitzvah
teacher myself could easily identify with him.  Teaching Bar Mitzvah
students here in Israel, I think I have the advantage that the kids I
tutor already know Hebrew.  On the other hand, they know almost no
dikduk, and many times have very poor reading skills.  I spend much time
trying to improve their reading skills in "k'tiv m'nukad" (spelling with
vowel notations), and also do a lot of basic dikduk with them.
  We start with dividing words into havarot(syllables), and finding the
taam(accented syllable).  This I connect with the proper placing of the
various Taamei HaMikrah(trouppe notations).  Then we learn t'nuot
k'tanot and g'dolot, and go on to sh'vaim - na/nach.  By this time it
isn't too hard to explain to the kid how to recognize a kamatz katan.
M'tagim help an awful lot too, and at some point we discuss those.
 I don't know what American Jewish kids are like, and I don't know if
doing so much dikduk with kids who don't speak Hebrew on a day to day
basis is practical.  I do know that the kids I teach do catch on, and
even if they don't remember all the rules, they do very well at their
Bar Mitzvahs.
  One final recommendation: the weekly shabbat pamphlet put out by
M'chon Tzomet, Shabat B'Shabato, has a very good column that gives the
correct pronunciation for all kinds of problematic words in the parasha.
They always mention the words with k'matzim k'tanim.


From: David Neustadter <david@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 16:07:59 +0300
Subject: Re: Ketubah Writing Programs

I don't know anything about what's done in Manchester, but my wife is an
artist who makes decorated Ketubot, and she prints out the text on our
PC.  She does the text in CorelDraw, prints it out tiled on letter size
paper, and then photocopies it onto larger decorative paper.  She does
the decorative border by hand, though she often designs it on the
computer as well.

We have also heard from a number of Mesadrei Kedushim that they very
much like the printed text because the names are in the same style, and
it's more uniform and perfect than a Ketuba written entirely by hand.


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 04:57:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Modern hebrew pronounciation

Bernie Horowitz mentioned 2 volumes a siddur and chumash listing all the
qamatz katan and schva na's.... please expand the citation.... I want those
and need enough info to order them.

Cheryl Hall
Long Beach CA USA


From: <moshel@...> (Moshe Linzer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 16:45:21 IDT
Subject: Restaurants open on Shabbat

What exactly is the problem with a restaurant (owned by Jews) that is
open on Shabbat?  In Israel this is a common problem, since many
restaurants claim to be kosher, but are denied a kashrut certificate
because they stay open on Shabbat.  Is the problem with the food
itself, that a mashgiach cannot supervise on Shabbat, or that it is
forbidden to eat food prepared by a Jew on Shabbat, or is it a punative
measure that a Jew who is "mechalel shabbat" does not merit a
"hechsher"?  This question holds particular significance since the
opening of Burger King in Ra'anana! :-)

Thanks for your insights,

Moshe Linzer				Phone:	(972) 9-594-283
Unix Systems Manager			Fax:	(972) 9-558-322
National Semiconductor, Israel		E-mail:	<moshel@...>


From: Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 11:54:46 -0400
Subject: sim shalom

Sefardim (bnei `edut hamizrach) recite sim shalom for shacharit, mincha
and arvit, at least according to at least 3 siddurim I've seen (sucath
david, sh`arei zion(?) [I should know, I use it daily, but I am unsure],
and one other whose title I've forgotten.).

jerry b. altzman   Entropy just isn't what it used to be      +1 212 650 5617
<jbaltz@...>  jbaltz@columbia.edu  KE3ML   (HEPNET) NEVIS::jbaltz


From: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 11:10:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Toveling

I once asked my rav about toveling containers that I wanted to re-use
after finishing their original contents, and he told me that such
containers require tevila.  Apparently, an item which is only to be used a
single time in food preparation does not need tevila (such as the foil
baking pans one can buy).  I believe there is a teshuva by Rav Moshe
indicating that if one wishes to re-use such foil pans, one must
tovel them.

Eitan Fiorino


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 94 13:06:40 -0400
Subject: Toveling of Bottles

Steven Phillips ask:
<What is the position regarding using bottles and other containers
<that contained food or drink which is under a Hechsher and which are
<now empty? Do they have to be Tovelled [dipped in a Mikveh] before

This is machlokes(dispute) aharonim.  The Chazon Ish is very strict on
this issue.  He holds that not only must you be tovel the can if you
re-use but as soon as you open it you must take all the food out.  You
cannot use it to store even the food that came in it.  However R' Moshe
Feinstein in I'gros Moshe Yoreh Deah (2 Siman 40) says that since the
non-jew who makes the can and sells it to you is really not selling the
can or jar but the the product inside the can (and the can is just a
means of getting the product to you) therefore the can is not called a
kli(utensil) and it is batel(?) to the food/drink in the bottle and
would not require tevilah.  If you decide to keep the can and use it you
are the one making it into a kli and therefore it is a kli made by a jew
which doesn't need t'vilah.

Ari Shapiro


End of Volume 13 Issue 82