Volume 13 Number 84
                       Produced: Fri Jul  1 13:42:10 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Changing the Past
         [Shmuel Weidberg]
Dikdukei Sofrim
         [Meylekh Viswanath ]
Eateries Open on Shabbat
         [A.M. Goldstein]
G'neivas Daas (Theft of Attitude)
         [Meir Lehrer]
Gneivth Da`ath (v13n82)
         [Mark Steiner]
Hebrew alphabet
         ["Ezra Dabbah"]
Hebrew Word Processors
         [Alan Lustiger]
Monsey Trails Bus Co.
         [Benjamin Rietti]
Science in the Torah
         [Louis Rayman]
What a Waste!
         [Jeff Korbman]


From: <shmuel@...> (Shmuel Weidberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 01:31:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Changing the Past

> From: <Dialectic@...> (Barry Fruendel)
> You are right Sam that evidence for actual changes of the past would be
> hard to find. This at least comes close because it is one of the
> specific examples cited by the Talmud as an unchangeable fact. There is
> one other such item.  The Talmud says that repentance from love (Teshuva
> Mei'ahava) changes past sins into good deeds

Teshuva Mei'ahava does not change the past. It only changes the outcome
of your deeds. If the aveira ultimately served to bring you closer to
Hashem it accomplished good and so can be counted as a good deed. The
past was never changed just the attitude towards it.



From: Meylekh Viswanath  <PVISWANA@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 14:30:16 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: Dikdukei Sofrim

Does anybody know where I can buy (preferably a complete set) of the
seyfer 'dikdukei sofrim?'

Thank you.
P.V. Viswanath, Rutgers University
Graduate School of Management, 92 New St, Newark NJ 07102
Tel: (201) 648-5899  Fax: (201) 648-1459  email: <pviswana@...>


From: A.M. Goldstein <MZIESOL@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 94 10:20:18 IST
Subject: Eateries Open on Shabbat

Continuing on from Moshe Linzer's question about restaurants serving
kosher but being opened on Shabbat, what about a bakery that does not
bake on shabbat but remains open to sell products baked prior to
Shabbat?  (Let us assume that one can safely say that no baking is being
done on Shabbat.  This situation is not a theoretical one, for such
bakeries have been given kashrut certificates in places.  Also places
like the old Grossingers and others such in Catskills do (did) business
on Shabbat, but had hashgacha on the food, including I believe Shabbat).


From: lehrer%<milcse@...> (Meir Lehrer)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 00:31:06 -0400
Subject: Re:  G'neivas Daas (Theft of Attitude)

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994 Sam Juni wrote:

>the focus of the prohibition is quite
>specific and pragmatic. It involves actual theft of services; i.e.,
>when B then proceeds to do an act of kindness or actually sends a gift
>to A, it is only then that G'neivas Daas has occured.

   This sounds pretty good. The best example I'd always remembered was
when A invites B to a dinner on a night where A knows that B cannot
attend (although B doesn't know that A knows that... :*() ), just so
that B will then invite A to his/her dinner.

- Meir Lehrer


From: Mark Steiner <MARKSA@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 02:56:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Gneivth Da`ath (v13n82)

	In a recent posting, Sam Juni claims that when A deceives
B into thinking that he has done B a service, favor, etc., gneivath
da`ath has not yet occurred:
"when B then proceeds to do an act of kindness or actually sends a gift
to A, it is only then that G'neivas Daas has occured."

	I am unable to substantiate this claim after looking into
Hullin 93b ff, Rambam De`oth 2:6, rishonim ad loc., Rashba Torath
Habayith, etc., and would appreciate knowing the source for this

Mark Steiner


From: "Ezra Dabbah" <ny001134@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 22:15:54 -0500
Subject: Hebrew alphabet

In mj v13#74 David Charlap asserts that ketab ibri is not holy. The 
Yerushalmi says that the Torah and Ten Commandments were given in ketab
ibri. Also, on my last trip to the Shrine of the Book at the Israel Museum,
one entire dead sea scroll was written in ketab ashooreet *except* Hashems
name which was written in ketab ibri. There must be some holiness in the
old script.

Ezra Dabbah


From: Alan Lustiger <alu@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 16:30:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Hebrew Word Processors

The Hebrew version of Word for Windows requires you to also have the
version of Windows 3.1 that has Hebrew support, which has some
shortcomings. So far, only Word for Windows 2 is available in the US
with Hebrew support; Word 6.0 should be out within a few months.

WordPerfect still supports the Hebrew add-on to WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS.
There will be no Hebrew add-on to WP6.0/DOS, but there will be a Hebrew
version of WordPerfect for Windows 6, scheduled for early 1995. I'm not
sure if it will support normal (non-Hebrew) Windows, although I assume
it will.

Lotus tells me that a Hebrew version of Ami Pro is in the works as well.
No details yet.

Our latest Kabbalah Software catalog is available in Windows format (and
soon, Mac format) via ftp from israel.nysernet.org.  Unfortunately, the
Windows version is very slow on anything less than a 486/50. The
text-only version should be uploaded within a couple of weeks as well.

Alan Lustiger
INTERNET:<lustiger@...>	UUCP:att!pruxp!alu
 ATTMAIL:!alustiger	 	CIS:72657,366


From: <sales@...> (Benjamin Rietti)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 19:11:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Monsey Trails Bus Co.

In V13 # 78, Susan Sterngold was enquiring about the Monsey Trails Bus
Co.  I have had the "pleasure ?" of travelling on this bus service from
Monsey to New York and back, and other than the bumpy ride, and a couple
of other niggling points it is a very reliable service.  There is NO
rule as to WHO may ride the bus, but predominantly only the frum
"chevra" know about it.  It is advertised locally in Brooklyn and New
York, so there is no reason why a non-Jew or non-frum-Jew may not see
the ad and hence travel.

There IS a mechitza between the two aisles of the bus, and it is
understood that sex segregation should take place - I myself witnessed a
couple of non Jewish men board the bus and sit on the men's side.
Couples tend to part and sit on either side, divided by a curtain (which
flies to and fro depending on how hard the driver pushes on the brakes!)
- I was fortunate to board the bus early enough with my wife (and two
kids!) and we were there- fore able to occupy the rear-most row
(undivided by mechitza) and able to enjoy eachother's company for the
duration of the journey - unfortunately there was no babysitting service
for the kids.

So as long as patrons can respect those who wish to have a mechitza, why
shouldn't there be one?  If you wish to sit next to your wife, and you
don't get the back row, so you get a break for 90 minutes - not so bad
(and the kids travel on her side too - even better!)

A lot has to be said for them - there's even a minyan on-board the early
buses to Manhattan.  Now beat that!  (I haven't been on the minyan bus,
so don't know how the mechitza is handled during that time - but I'm
sure there's an answer... I believe they even have a sefer Torah on
board Mon & Thurs - bathroom isn't a problem, because it's usually out
of order).

Enjoy the ride!

Benjamin Rietti, London  .... but sometimes travels to Monsey...


From: ccorp!mbr21!<lrayman@...> (Louis Rayman)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 18:16:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Science in the Torah

>>>there is a Klal (rule) that the further away from the Relevation at Sinai
>>> the scope of knowledge is less.

>>Jonathan Katz
>>First of all, this rule only applies to matters of Torah and halacha; it
>>was never inetended to refer to other disciplines, including the
>>sciences.  Second, do you really mean that the scope of knowledeg is
>>less? The way I always saw it was that our mental capacity was less:

>Danny Skaist
>The first things that were lost when our mental capacity was lessened
>was the sciences and other diciplines, (also found in the torah) since
>more of our mental capacities were needed just to retain hallacha.

Whoa! Let's back up a bit...

I believe we are discussing two things here.

First, a statement in Pirke Avot, "Hafoch ba, d'kulla ba" - Turn it (the
Torah) over and over (i.e. study and re-study it very carefully) for
everything can found in it.

Second, a maimer chazal (statement of our rabbis of blessed memory) from
I forget where: "Niskatnu Hadoros" - The generations have (and are)
lessened in their level of understanding the torah.

Is Danny saying that after the torah was given, Moshe Rabbeinu knew all
of science as well as all the torah (since there is really no
distinction between the two)?  That Moshe could have derived the general
theory of reletivity, or plot out the orbits of the planets - from his

I don't believe this is the case.  

The Torah tells us of Betzalel, the architect of the mishkan, who Hashem
had filled with "the spirit of G-d, with wisdom, understanding, and
knowledge of all creative work; to make designs, to work with gold,
silver, bronze, stoneworking etc. (Parshas Ki Sisa)" Betzalel was an
expert artist, architect and engineer.  If Moshe had all this knowledge
too, why did he need a Betzalel?

There is a medrash (I think in Parshas Beha'aloscha) that after
receiving the instructions for building the mishkan, Moshe could not
understand the design of the menorah, and that Hashem had to 'show' him
a picture.  At whatever level of meaning and allegory you wish, there is
something here that Moshe did not understand, but the pashut pshat
(simple meaning) is that he could not grasp the physical or scientific
principals behind the design of the menorah.

The gemara in Betzah (or is it Rosh Hashana?) says "anan d'beki'in
b'kviah d'yarcha" - we have become expert in determining the moon (when,
where, and how the moon appears, in order to examine witnesses for Rosh
Chodesh and to establish a permanent calendar), while previous
generations did not have such knowledge.  Does this mean that the
knowledge was given at Har Sinai, was lost and later re-acquired?  Or
does it mean that that knowledge was learned over the years as it was
studied?  (This one is not a rhetorical question - what's pshat in this

I could go on with examples like this.  My point is: I do not believe
that the statement in pirke avos is refering to "science" as we use the
term today.

Louis Rayman - Mercenary Programmer


From: Jeff Korbman <KORBMANJ%<UJAFED@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 18:16:18 -0400
Subject: Re: What a Waste!

What a Waste!

So there I was, enjoying a take-out lunch from the people who I wished
catered my wedding, Kosher Delight, when I decide to start eating one of
my three hamburgers.  Packed in with the burgers are something between
7,000 - 8,000 little packets of Heinz Ketchup. (By the way, when it says
"57 varieties" on those things, what are they talking about?  Sure, they
make mustard, maybe a barbecue sauce or two, BUT 57 VARIETIES OF HEINZ?
WHERE?)  Because I didn't feel like trying to rip open those little
guys, I went to throw them out as I always do when it hit me - IS THIS

Then, I began to wonder: where does Bal Tashchit come from?  I can't
find it in the chumash (although when you read the Cain side of the Cain
and Abel story you think - what a waste), and I can't find it in the
Shulchan Aruch, so where's it from?  My mom seemed to know when she
pointed to the green wet things on my plate she called lima beans and
told me to "finish up - don't be bal tashchit".

Moreover, what are the boundaries, if any?  For instance, what if I ate
only half of my third burger; do I have to hold onto the other half if I
think I might eat it in a few hours?  Similarly, with the
ketchup/mustard/whatever packets, do I hold onto them until Pesach
because I or someone in my office might use them?

It's kind of funny, in a way.  You would think that with our neurotic
infatuation with food - it's either SUPER Glatt or it's not - more would
be written on the topic.  Any leads?


End of Volume 13 Issue 84