Volume 13 Number 97
                       Produced: Wed Jul  6 17:54:24 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Mechy Frankel]
Electric Appliances, AC and DC
         [Mike Gerver]
Lubavich Rebbe as Moshiach
         [Sam Juni]
Lubavitch (2)
         [David Kaufmann , Harry Weiss]
Rebbe's funeral
         [David A Rier]


From: Mechy Frankel <frankel@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 19:03:58 -0400
Subject: Causality

I find that one of the more engaging if occasionally startling aspects
of mj is the remarkably eclectic and seemingly random mix of topics
liable to show up on any given day. So here we go off on yet another
improbable-to-this forum tangent:

1. Re Doug Behrman's suggestion that many modern physicists subscribe to
the notion that each branch point gives rise to separate but equally
valid exisiting universes, I guess that depends on what your notion of
"many" is. It is a derech actually supported by only a small minority of
physicists - and many more science fiction writers (no, I haven't done a
census, just a personal impression). In any event, I believe that Doug
might agree with me that the suggestion that we blame all this on
Einstein might be choshaid bekeshairim, since it is safe to presume that
he would have utterly rejected such a conception as he did other claims
to quantum mechanical completeness. Actually, Einstein would never have
heard of this theory since I'm under the impression that he died some
years before Hugh Everett formulated it.

2.  I also find myself in some partial disagreement with Joshua Burton's
discussion of retroactive changes to past events. Joshua's articulation
that there are past events about which no present knowledge is possible,
e.g. the measurement of a photon's right hand circular polarization
"wipes out all the universe's memory in a fell swoop" of the
complementary linear component, so that it is now "no longer possible,
even in principle to determine whether it was horizontally or vertically
polarized when emitted" is, I think, misleading as worded. The fallacy
is the implication that, prior to this measurement, the photon actually
had a definite value of linear momentum which is now forever unknowable.
In fact, Joshua also clearly rejects such a notion as Joshua's later
reference to interference effects and the photon's possession of both
histories clearly implies the photon does not have a single (though
unknown) value but exists as a superposition of both possibilities. Thus
there is no particular single valued memory of the universe available to
be wiped out at one or more swoops. There have always been dissenters
(hidden variables true believers - actually I'm a bit soft on them
myself) but that is the nominal consensus.

Underlying Joshua's discussion is the notion that a current local
measurement may "determine" effects at space-like separated intervals.
This, as Joshua certainly well knows, is at the heart of six decades of
still ongoing discussions revolving around the proper interpretation the
classic Einstein-Podalsky-Rosen paradox and is amongst those devarim
haomedim berumo shel olam, at least IMHO. (Indeed the inference - cited
above - that the photon did have a definite value of linear momentum
even prior to measurement, since the experimenter has the option of
taking steps which permit a completely certain prediction (about the
"other" photon) without (lichora) disturbing the system in any way, is
the very essence of Einstein's EPR argument.)  We are unlikely to make
much progress in this forum.

3. I am also surprised that the discussion of retroactive changes has
not brought the potential paradoxes into clearer relief. More readily
apparent paradoxes involve a feedback loop between the changing and
changed events. e.g.  killing your grandmother (or -kinder/gentler,
preventing her shidduch) so you were never born, so you couldn't have
grown up to kill your grandmother, so you were born,... vechozair hadin.

Mechy Frankel                                    H: (301) 593-3949
<frankel@...>                             W: (703) 325-1277 


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 4:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Electric Appliances, AC and DC

In v13n52, Gedalyah Berger says

> Just about every electric device has a rectifier at its input which
> changes the voltage from AC to DC, on which the device actually runs.

I think Gedalyah is again illustrating the generation gap he discussed
in v12n31 under the heading "The 'Language of Ben Yehudah'". While his
use of electric appliances may be limited to computers, TVs, CD players,
and other appliances which use solid state circuitry (and necessarily
use DC), some of us old fogeys occasionally use vacuum cleaners, light
bulbs, toasters, and mixmasters (food processors to you), which are 
strictly AC devices.

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 20:32:10 -0400
Subject: Lubavich Rebbe as Moshiach

Regarding one of the several theories extant currently in Lubavich that
the Rebbe will arise with T'Chias Ha'Meisim and then be the Moshiach, I
am puzzled by the reasoning here:

     So long as we are postulating that Moshiach can be declared after
     T'Chias Ha'Meisim, why should the Moshiach not be expected to be
     a greater Tzaddik yet: e.g., The previous Rebbe, The Ba'al Hatanya,
     The Besh"t, Rabbi Yehudah Hannasi, King David, etc?

I am also unclear about the theological approach here.  The notion that
the Moshiach can (must?) first die before being resurrected as Moshiach
has only been circulated (to the lay public, at least) after the Rebbe's
death.  If this was a tenet, why the late circulation?

A knowledgable Rabbi recently told me that in the Rebbe's Sichos
(presentations) immediately following the previous Rebbe's death, there
were numerous references to the idea that the previous Rebbe will be the
Moshiach after he is resurrected.  I wonder how this impacts on the
current ideology?

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: David Kaufmann  <david@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 18:48:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Lubavitch

Avi, as a shliach and one involved in the Moshiach campaign (I'll put in
a plug for the 1-800-4-MOSHIACH line now), I will try to answer any
reasonable question - with the caveats that: "I don't know" may be the
most common or most acceptable answer; there is no official Lubavitch
position other than the words/writings of the Rebbe himself; and it may
take a day or two for me to respond - either because of non-virtual
reality demands or attempts to research the answer.

In the meantime, I can also recommend _Besuros HaGeulah_ which is a
collection of the Rebbe's statements concerning Moshiach and the
Redemption starting from Elul 5750. It is being translated by Sichos in
English (770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn 11213) and I think it is also
available through the Chabad gopher. (Sections 1-8 should be available

I, for one, want to publicly thank Avi, not just in advance, for his
being a paradigmatic moderator - in all senses of the word.

>From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
>Subject: Death of the Rebbe
>I sent in a post a while ago regarding the statements which were made
>soon after the Rebbe died. I specifically found fault with statements ot
>the effect of "we have faith that the Rebbe will be resurrected and come
>back as Moshiach".
>I would like to send in an update. This past Friday night, I spoke to someone
>at Chabad and asked him specifically about the above statement. He
>explained it as follows: 
>(the following is a paraphrase and does not represent my own opinion)
>"The Rebbe said that Moshiach will come in this generation. Even though the
>Rebbe has died, we have complete faith that his prediction will come true.
>Now, it is a well-known fact that when Moshiach comes, the righteous will
>be resurrected first. Thus, when Moshiach comes, *then* will the Rebbe be
>This satisfied me. The only question I still have is whether or not the
>majority of the Lubavitch Hasidim feel this way, or whether this person
>was offering a post-hoc rationalization. Any ideas?

I cannot speak for "the majority," but that is a fairly accurate
statement. (btw, the Rebbe stated it as a prophecy, not just a
prediction.) Whether the Rebbe will come back _with_ Moshiach or _as_
Moshiach is a different question. Questions of chronology aside, tehiyas
hamasim (resurrction of the dead) depends on bi-as haMoshiach (the
coming of Moshiach) for one and all.

>From: <plaufer@...> (Pinchus Laufer)
>Subject: Re: Funeral of the Lubavitcher Rebbe
>Have any of our correspondents attended the levaya (funeral) of the
>Lubavitcher Rebbe Zatzal?  If so, can you inform those of us who did not
>attend what took place?  Were there Hespedim? If yes: By whom? Can you
>summarize them?  What sort of representation was there by non-Lubavitch
>members of Klal Yisroel (excluding the press)?

I was at the levaya. As is the Chabad custom, there were no hespedim.
I can't give you specific names of others who were there; I did see
some Chassidim who were obviously non-Lubavitch; I also saw a number
of people escorted inside 770 - indicating VIP status. A number of
friends and acquaintances also said they were there. My feeling was
that klal Yisroel was there.

>Is the NYTimes report of 12,000 mourners (including a few thousand from
>Kfar Chabad) accurate?  I had anticipated between 200,000-500,000.

The NYTimes report was way off. I've heard minimum 30-50,000. Tens of
thousands could not make it to the levaya because of travel times, but
came in during the week.

>I clearly have 2 agendas in posing these questions: (1) I wasn't there
>and feel I ought to have been.  I am wondering what actually took place.
>and (2) I am trying to discover if the treatment of Rav Soloveitchik
>Zatzal was truly an anomaly (possibly attributable to all the
>imputations presented in this and other fora) or is the Achdus of the
>Klal so weakened that Gedolim of this stature are not awarded due

As to what actually took place, I don't think I can give an accurate
description. As for Achdus: since the Rebbe stated many times that
achdus and ahavas chinam would bring Moshiach, perhaps we should better
ask - how can we, in the merit of all the gedolim (and k'tanim!),
increase the achdus and ahavas chinam as well as observance, so that
Moshiach will come and we can participate in and learn from the
machlokes l'shem shamayim (controversies/discussions for the sake of
heaven) with all the gedolim, thereby filling the world with knowledge
of Hashem?

From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 23:51:30 
Subject: Lubavitch

In MJ 13#75 David Kessler brings a long series of quotes from the
Moshiach list.  He says how is shocked by what he read.

The first thing I would like to state that it would be more appropriate
if he would have indicated where he deleted sections.  Between the
paragraph ending "They were not just not relevant to what we were quite
convince of: that the Moshiach was here with us know in the person of
the Rebbe." and the paragraph beginning "Nevertheless, there are huge
differences between our belief that the Rebbe will be revealed as
Moshiach and Christianity." there are 4 paragraphs in Moshiach.

[I think I may have to take responsibility for that. There were two
sections where there were ...'s to indicate that he was quoting just
sections. When I reformated, I think I lost one set of the dots. Mod.]

This whole quotation is part of responses to various questions and the
posting in MJ takes the issue out of context.  Since I think Rabbi
Milecki, the writer of Moshiach is on MJ, I hope he will respond
directly to the issues raised.

It is more important that we look at the real Lubavitch. The real
Lubavitch is represented by the Shlichim throughout the world.  They are
found in places where in the past you could never find an Orthodox Jew.
We must not forget how many Jews now keep Shabbat, Kashrut and other
Mitzvot because of the efforts of Lubavitch.  When an Orthodox Jew
travel to an out of the way place there is often now a Chabad office he
can call to find to obtain Kosher food etc. (as well as usually an
invitation for a home cooked meal.)

We all owe a great debt to the Rebbe Z'TL for his efforts and leadership
in spreading Yiddiskeit throughout the world.  This effort begun by the
Rebbe is continuing by the Shlichim (reps).  From my discussions with
our local Shaliach, I understand these efforts will be expanded in
memory of the Rebbe.  Through their great work, the spirit of the Rebbe
remains alive.



From: David A Rier <dar6@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 94 16:43:41 EDT
Subject: Rebbe's funeral

Regarding Pinchas Laufer's question:   Though neither a Lubavitcher nor
a chasid, I attended the Rebbe's recent levaya in Crown Heights. 
FIrst, there were no eulogies, which, I am informed, is in keeping with
Lubavitch practice.  Second, while I cannot estimate the crowd with
real accuracy, it was certainly much much closer to the official figure
of 12,000 than the 250,000 I would have expected.  I was actually
shocked that there were not more people there.  On the other hand, the
area immediately around 770 was packed very, very tight, and the crowd
was surrounded by many, many, many cops and police vehicles, not
including at least 2 helicopters hovering overhead for quite a while. 
Given the size of the crowd that was there, and the police presence and
public safety issues, it's hard to see where they would have put
250,000.  Also, there may have een some confusion about the time of the
levaya; some heard, erroneously, that it had been postponed 1-2 hrs. 
FInally, many were en route from all over the globe, and others went
straight to the cemetary.  About the mix:  I was very surprised that
there seemed, from what I could see, to be extremely few "modern,
knit-kippa types".  I did see Rabbi Yudin of YU and Fair Lawn with his
son, but I could have counted others on my two hands.  I am not sure
about the presence of other gedolim or their representitives, but,
roughly speaking, there did not seem to  be very many there (although I
couldn't see everyone's face, and I would not have recognized
everyone).  I will not speculate here on why certain people or groups
were not there.  What I DID see were thousands of people in shock,
including quite a number of sfardim and many people who seemed not to e
fully observant yet, but felt a tremendous closeness to the Rebbe.  I
see thousand of yeshiva boys and seminary girls crying and praying, and
plenty of non-Lubavitch chasidim there as well.  The crowd was nealry
silent until they brought out the Rebbe from 770; before I actually saw
the coffin, I heard a collective gasp as though the whole crowd had
been punched in the stomach at once.  It was unforgettable, and it gave
me a real sense of what klall Yisroel has just lost.  Finally, the
coffin was driven away immediately after being taken from 770, and
thousands escorted it down Eastern Prkwy from Kingston till Utica Ave.  


End of Volume 13 Issue 97