Volume 14 Number 26
                       Produced: Sun Jul 17 18:53:12 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cheating on exams
         [Sam Juni]
Fake Meat and Shoes
         [Jeff Korbman]
Glatt and other Chumros: theory vs reality
         [Rick Turkel]
IRC or Internet Relay Chat
         [Irwin H. Haut]
Judge everyone for the positive
         [David Eckhardt]
Kosher Restaurants
         [Cheryl Hall]
Long Black Jackets
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
         [Rena M. Goldish]
Mistake correction
         [Ira Rosen]
Son of Pig Tomatoes - or - Food for Thought
         [Danny Geretz]
Temple Burning
         [Mitchel Berger]
What year is it (and Lying on Purim)
         [David Curwin]


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 15:45:05 -0400
Subject: Cheating on exams

Shoshana Benjamin (7/8/94) inquires re the Hallacha of cheating on
exams, in connection with the discussion re G'neivas Da'as.  My
understanding is that such "cheating" would not be barred under that
particular categoriztion, since one is not taking anything from the
professor; "giving" grades is merely a figure of speech.

I do not know which Hallacha, if any, cheating on exams does impinge on.

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: Jeff Korbman <KORBMANJ%<UJAFED@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 15:31:43 -0400
Subject: Fake Meat and Shoes

 Danny Geretz asks about whether or not fake meat (i.e. tofu?) would
fall under the prohibition of the nine days.  Good question.  To take it
a step further, let me ask about leather shoes on T'sha B'Av: Should
fake leather shoes be prohibited etc..  etc..

The reason why I ask is not to be cute.  Rather, as I understand it, we
are prohibited from wearing leather shoes because they were deemed to be
"comfortable" or a "luxury".  Since we are mourning on this day, we are
prohibited from being comforted in this way.  Yet, today, there are
simply many made-made shoes which are just as commfortable and often as
expensive.  (Many sneakers, for example)

In a way, it reminds me of lettuce.  As you know, we are forbidden to
eat bugs.  Therefore, over the years, in order to eat lettuce (among
other vegetables), one was required to "check" lettuce for bugs.  But
then the 70's came, and farmers began using persticides and other
chemicals on their crop to protect them.  During this time a Heter was
given, I believe by R' Moshe but I'm not absolutely sure, that certain
types of lettuce either didn't need to be checked or not checked as
extensively.  [soon after we became "environmentally conscience again
and the chemical pesticides were tossed thereby requiring us to check
our lettuce]

The point is that the law never changed: can't eat bugs - big no no; but
the way we observed that law changed as our reality/modernity changed.
Therefore, my question regarding shoes, or Danny's on tofu has much
more, I belive, to do with the nature of halacha than with leather and
what to put on the barby.  Do we simply say, "Lo Plug" ("no change") and
that's the way it is - e.g. you can't swim on Shabbat because you "might
build a boat" (See M.B. on Hilchos Shabbat) and that's the way it is
today - Lo Plug.  Or do we adjust how we observe the principles of: Not
wering *comfortable shoes - even sneakers, or eating festively - even
tofu.......  etc. etc.?


From: <rturkel@...> (Rick Turkel)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 11:36:28 EDT
Subject: Glatt and other Chumros: theory vs reality

I'm a bit behind in my reading of m.j, but last month Janice Gelb wrote:

> More importantly, though, I'd like to introduce another piece of
> "reality vs. theory": because of the prevalence of people buying glatt
> meat to be extra careful, the term itself has become a substitute for
> "super-kosher." Thus, I am sure I am not the only one who has seen signs
> for "glatt chicken" even though there is no such animal (pun intended).

This reminded my of an incident my late wife witnessed over 30 years ago
(so it's not a "new" problem!) when she worked for the New York City
Department of Welfare.  She was in a luncheonette in Brooklyn when an
older woman entered with what appeared to be grandchild.  The woman
asked the proprietor in a very heavy Yiddish accent for "a geyzl cholov
yisroel mit a glatt kosher cookie."  My first questions were, "Where do
they put the lungs in a cookie?  And why?"

On the same note, someone told me last week of a new development - there
is now something called "Glatt-Plus" on the market.  Does that mean the
steer have been circumcised, or maybe the cows have been to the mikvah?

Where will it all end?

Rick Turkel         (___  _____  _  _  _  _  __     _  ___   _   _  _  ___
<rturkel@...>)oh.us|   |  \  )  |/  \     |    |   |   \__)    |
<rturkel@...>        /      |  _| __)/   | ___)    | ___|_  |  _(  \    |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money.  Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.


From: Irwin H. Haut <0005446733@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 19:25 EST
Subject: IRC or Internet Relay Chat

having started to stumble around on the internet, and having listened in to
several innocuous conversations, it occurred to me that it would be a good
idea for interested mj's, who have the interest and capability, to converse
together. to that end i suggest that i will open a channel, on the evening
after this transmission appears. a good time would be about 10:00 p.m.,
d.s.t., on the east coast, so that all from the east to west coasts can
participate. of course, that may make things difficult for our brethren to
the east. the channel will be opened under the name "# brooklyn 1".irwin


From: <David_Eckhardt@...> (David Eckhardt)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 18:25:20 -0400
Subject: Judge everyone for the positive

Adam Freedman provides us with a plausible scenario in which the Bnei
Barak residents were strongly admonishing the driver of the
Shabbat-breaking car in order to save lives, and suggests that we should
try to construct such scenarios to think well rather than ill of other

That sounds like a very good idea to me.  But then shouldn't the Bnei
Barak residents have assumed the car driver's child was dangerously ill
and in need of a doctor?

Dave Eckhardt


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 16:36:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Kosher Restaurants

Restaurants need a "critical mass" or volume of diners to be
economically feasible.  In most places there will never be enough
kosher-observant Jews to provide the base clientele.  However, if one
plans a good restaurant facility, with atmosphere, exceptional service,
appealing fare... that just happens to be KOSHER, then you've increased
the potential for success, because you are not limiting you marketshare.
Attact the goyim! This is a pet peeve of mine. Why think so small?
Obviously, it can be ANY KIND OF FOOD, Oriental, Italian, Mid
Eastern/Israeli, Mexican, Nuveau California or even Jewish Deli!

I was schocked on a recent visit to my parents in greater Cincinnati.
The small kosher bagelry I remembered from 5 years ago, has 3 large
restaurant locations (one 10 minutes from my parents) all supervised by
the Cincinnati Vaad Hoier.  I'll tell you right now there aren't enough
"frum" Jews in the tri-state Cincinnati area to support 1 restaurant for
a week. This was my parents' surprize for me... we went to lunch there.
They were constantly busy and the percentage of Jews about 0.1%.

Cheryl Hall
Long Beach CA USA (where there are no Kosher Restaurants)


From: <sbechhof@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:10:16 -0400
Subject: Long Black Jackets

Danny kaist remarked on the long slits in the vents of "frocks" or
"kapotes". If you look carefully you will note that one of the corners is
rounded to prevent the requirement of tziztis.
Yosef Bechhofer


From: <bt091@...> (Rena M. Goldish)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 14:25:15 -0400
Subject: Lying 

Relevant to the recent discussion on lying is an exhaustive article by a
fellow subscriber in which he cites most of the sources cited here plus
many others.  It is called "Perspectives on Truthfulness in the Jewish
Tradition" by Ari Zivotofsky and appeared in the summer 1993 issue of
Judaism magazine.


From: Ira Rosen <irosen@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 94 14:09:37 EDT
Subject: Mistake correction

In my haste to quote from a t'shuva of my great-grandfather, I accidently
reversed his name.  It was Alter Shaul Pfeffer - NOT Shaul Alter.  My humble
		- Ira Rosen


From: starcomm!imsasby!dgeretz (Danny Geretz)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 01:49:45 -0400
Subject: Son of Pig Tomatoes - or - Food for Thought

Some long-term readers may recall that "pig tomatoes" were discussed in
this forum sometime last spring or summer.  For new readers (and at the
risk of annoying readers that know a lot more about how this works than
I do) "pig tomatoes" are genetically engineered tomatoes containing some
genetic material similar to (and originally derived from) genetic
material found in pigs.  This was done to give the tomato a longer
shipping/shelf life when ripe (so that the consumer could buy *red*,
rather than greenish orange tomatoes).

Well, the company that developed these special tomatoes, Calgene, got
FDA? / USDA? approval to sell the tomatoes and they started appearing on
grocery store shelves in the West and Midwest US about a month or two
ago, according to news reports.  (Before you go bananas - relax - the
conclusion last year was that there's no kashrut issue with the
tomatoes, but CYLOR just to be sure.)

Now comes word of the latest genetic engineering feat. (Actually, I
heard this on the radio about 6 months ago, but have just now gotten
around to posting it, the above referenced tomatoes being the catalyst.)
It seems that some very clever people have been staying awake nights and
worrying about the trash/landfill crisis, and have developed a new,
biodegradable plastic wrap.  The plastic wrap is made from some polymer
that is derived from or very similar to *cheese*.  In fact, the claim is
that you don't even have to unwrap your stored food - you just pop the
whole thing in the microwave and let the wrap just "melt in" to your
food (yuck!).

Just thought you might want to know...

Danny Geretz
<dgeretz@...> <= preferable
<dgeretz@...> <= if my mail is bouncing


From: Mitchel Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:10:21 -0400
Subject: Temple Burning

I assume the wood frame burnt and many of the contents, the limestone melted
with a great deal of smoke, and the rest collapsed.

I feel safe in guessing that someone, somewhere, writes that the marble
miraculously caught flame.


From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 12:39:03 -0400
Subject: What year is it (and Lying on Purim)

To respond to Howard Berlin (<berlin@...>):

As to the first question (about the seeming contradiction between
Bresheit 5:32 and 11:10): The book THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS IN THE OLD
TESTAMENT, by Eliezer Shulman, on page 17 he deals with this point. Both
Rashi (Br. 5:32) and the Ramban (Br. 6:10) point out that Yafet was
really the older son, but Shem was listed first because of his virtue.
This would explain that Yafet was born in 1556 (when Noach was 500),
Shem in 1558 (vis a vis Br. 11:10), and Ham was born last (Br. 9:24),
sometime after 1558. So Br. 5:32 is not saying all of Noach's sons were
born in the same year, but that in that year he first became a father.

In regard to the second question (about the date of the Dispersion):
Shulman deals with it on page 21. There is no date given for the
dispersion in the Tora, but Seder Olam Rabbah (Chapter 1) says that the
dispersion took place 340 years after the flood. There is a hint to the
date in the Tora though.  In Br. 10:25 it says about Peleg "that in his
days the earth was divided".  This is referring to the dispersion, and
Seder Olam Rabbah interprets "in his days" to mean "the end of his
days". Peleg died in the year 1996, 340 years after the flood.

One other note. In a previous post about lying, I discussed different
interpretations of the word "puriya" on Bava Metzia 33b. I found one
interesting interpretation by the Maharsha. The other explanations
(Rashi, Tosfot, Rambam) all refered to "puriya" as meaning "bed". The
Maharsha uses another meaning - Purim. He quotes the famous gemara in
Megilla 7b, where it says one must get drunk on "puraya" (Purim) until
he can't tell the differnce between Mordechai and Haman. The Maharsha
says one may lie (if he is not drunk) and say he can't tell the
differnce between Haman and Mordechai, even if he can.


End of Volume 14 Issue 26