Volume 14 Number 30
                       Produced: Mon Jul 18 20:27:26 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Costs of a Jewish (Orthodox) Lifestyle
         [Benjamin Rietti]
Dina Demalchuta
         [Michael Broyde]
Eating dairy after meat
         [Jonathan Katz]
         [Steven Edell]
Mazal Tov and Hebrew Name
         [Danny Geretz]
Proliferation and Cost of Yeshivot
         [Herschel Ainspan]
The Feminine Aspect of the Megilot
         [David Curwin]
         [Warren Burstein]
Yeshiva Tuition and Tax Deductions
         [Sam Juni]


From: <mljewish@...> (Avi Feldblum)
Date: Tue Jul 19 09:55:47 EDT 1994
Subject: Administrivia

Sorry about the truncated (actually the head was chopped off, not the
end, so what do you call that?) issue 30 that went out. My error. Here
is a correct copy.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: <sales@...> (Benjamin Rietti)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 12:16:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Costs of a Jewish (Orthodox) Lifestyle

Jeffrey Adler was commenting on the many hardships faced by young, (and
most probably older too) members of communities when it comes to paying
for the religious necessities of life.

He touched on a number of points:
(1) Spending more money on Education
(2) Is it an injustice to have more children than one can afford? 
(3) Fixing prices on Kosher Food

I would say that most definitely our children's education comes first,
and should take priority over any other tzedakah - there is no reason
why someone should not pay 100% full fees if he is prepared to give
money to other charities without asking them to give him a break!  Of
course the need for a local mikvah is also important - without which
there won't be any kids to worry about sending to school - but if
everyone is contributing towards that, then on a global scale the
donation required by each family should be negligible.

I once asked the same question as your number (2) - because I was
learning in a Yeshiva, where the crowd was a mixture of Bachurim and
Married Kollel guys - As a Bachur I saw Kollel members who would have 5+
kids (V'ken yirbu!)  who would be claiming from the state for every
thing possible, reliant on others giving them tzedakah, etc.. etc.. - it
bothered me, and I genuinely felt that it may be wrong for them to
continue having kids - at everybody else's expense. I was wrong - and my
Rosh Yeshiva pointed out why...

Every child that HaShem gives us is a precious jewel of a gift - and it
IS OUR responsibility to nurture them - HOWEVER, it is a matter of faith
that one must realise that every Chesed WE DO to others is ultimately
our purpose in Life - HaShem created us in HIS image - that image of
PURE CHESED - kindness.  If we do our purpose, then HaShem has to help
us out - that's HIS part of the bargain!  That being the case, we are
merely following orders, and being fuitful and multiplying is the
ultimate in doing Chesed - bringing another yid into the world, taking
care of them, and GIVING them all we've got - the reward for which is
that HaShem has promised to help.  If my checks are therefore guaranteed
by HIS bank account - I've got NO WORRIES!

For each and every child we bring into this world, HaShem will provide.
I noticed this when I got married.  My first child wasn't yet born and I
was worried about the additional financial burden that would be placed
on me.  To compensate for my low kollel paycheck I tutored "on the side"
and this together with a little help from parents was enough to keep us
going, but NOT necessarily enough to pay for everything else that came
bundled with the baby.  A week before the baby was born I was approached
by someone who was willing to pay me $100 a week to teach him - and I
jumped at it.

You may consider it coincidental, but the point is if HaShem wants to
help us out, He has His ways - and for me this extra cash was just what
I needed.  Admittedly I haven't been handed bills of thousands for
tuition yet, but please G-d, I'll continue with the same faith when that
turning point comes.

Lastly on the question of kosher food prices - you are quite right,
kosher food is expensive, and monopolies don't help keep their prices
down either.  But bear in mind there are costs involved that non-kosher
manufacturers don't have to worry about - such as paying a Shomer's
wage! There should however be some involvement from a higher level to
keep prices down - and the same applies to other jewish commodities such
as lulav/esrog, matzoh, etc.  I can buy 5 lemons for a $1, or one esrog
for $50 - doesn't seem fair when you realise that they are being bought
by the case for next to nothing.

Jeffrey's right - Being young and observant should not mean that you
need to rely on others to get by - BUT you must rely on HaShem that
whatever you do for Him, He'll help you in return.

      Benjamin Rietti


From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 94 19:26:42 EDT
Subject: Dina Demalchuta

I was recently told that the Nishmat Avraham (R. Abraham) has a
discussion of the relationship between dina demalchuta, DNR orders and
the halachic obligations.  I cannot find it.  would any of the readers
be aware of such a discussion by the author of the nishmat avraham?
Thank you.
                            Rabbi Michael Broyde


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 94 19:26:25 EDT
Subject: Eating dairy after meat

I've always been curious about the history of the prohibition against eating
dairy after meat. A few questions come to mind right away:

1) According to the Torah, it seems that the only problem is eating meat
and milk TOGETHER. To the best of my knowledge, waiting after eating meat
is not m'deoreita.
2) That being the case, when was it instituted to wait after eating meat?
3) The most vexing question, to me, concerns the various customs people hold
as far as the time between eating goes. What is the basis for the different
times? (i.e. the one I've heard is that it's the approximate time it takes
for the stomach to digest meat). What are the sources for 3 hours vs.
6 hours vs. 72 minutes and everything else??

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive
Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Steven Edell <edell@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 19:25:37 -0400
Subject: Flouresence

Hi, all-

The 'Burger Ranch' here in Israel always gives out free toys with its 
boxed children's lunch.  Recently it started giving out flourescent 
animal figures - put them near a strong light to "charge", then see them 
for some time in a darkened room.

My children 'charged them up' on Friday night, and I wondered - shouldn't 
it be prohibited?  Aren't you charging the electrons (or whatever) to a 
certain shape, similar to electricity?  Could anyone give me a source to 
a psak on this?

Steven Edell, Computer Manager   Internet:<edell@...>
United Israel Appeal, Inc                   <uio@...>
(United Israel Office)    **ALL PERSONAL**          Voice:  972-2-255513
Jerusalem, Israel        **OPINIONS HERE!**         Fax  :  972-2-247261
"From the depths of despair I called on you, my Lord" (Psalms 130)


From: starcomm!imsasby!dgeretz (Danny Geretz)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 12:43:28 -0400
Subject: Mazal Tov and Hebrew Name

[On behalf of mail-jewish, I would like to extend our best wishes of
mazal Tov to Hadassah and Danny!  Avi Feldblum, Mod.]

Hadassah and I would like to joyfully announce the birth of our second
daughter, Eliana Shira, who was born on 18 Tamuz (July 27).  Eliana
weighed 6 lbs., 12 oz. and measured 18-3/4 inches.

My e-mail has been on-again-off-again since Pesach, but I've managed to
catch up now (at one point not too long ago, I was backlogged about 80
messages!).  One item that I feel well-armed to respond to, concerns
Daniel Epstein's query re: the hebrew name Davina.

A quick check in our borrowed (from my sister) copy of Alfred J. Kolatch's
"New Name Dictionary" reveals that Davina is indeed "A Scottish form of 
David used in the seventeenth century."

Daniel Geretz
<dgeretz@...> <= e-mail address du jour, works most of the time
<dgeretz@...> <= I check this once every copule of weeks, just in case...


From: <ainspan@...> (Herschel Ainspan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 08:50:07 -0400
Subject: Re:  Proliferation and Cost of Yeshivot

	I'm curious as to the tradeoff between the mitzvot of v'la`erev
al tanach yadcha (the rabbinical obligation to have children beyond 1
boy and 1 girl) and proper chinuch of the resulting children.
	It seems that the father's mitzvah of v'la`erev al tanach yadcha
would be mitigated by his financial inability to fulfill his Torah
obligation of chinuch for any resulting boys (and possible rabbinical
obligation of chinuch for any resulting girls - see Rav Moshe's teshuva
that girls today need to go to yeshiva to avoid the anti-Torah
influences of public school).
	In a nutshell, is it better to have more children if one is
unable financially to provide them with a yeshiva education?  Or is it
better to ignore a mitzvah kiyumit mi'd'rabbanan to avoid being `over on
a mitzvah chiyuvit mi'd'oraita?  Comments, sources, piskei halacha?
	Herschel Ainspan (<ainspan@...>)


From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 01:34:59 -0400
Subject: The Feminine Aspect of the Megilot

Here is a question that has bothered me for a while:
Four of the Megilot have very feminine aspects. Ruth and Esther both have
female heroes. And both Shir HaShirim and Eicha use the image of a woman
as a symbol of the Jewish people (Kuzari, Kol Dodi Dofek). As a matter
of fact, that is the only thing I can see in common in those four books.
But where does Kohelet fit in? What does it have in common with the
other megilot, in terms of the feminine aspect, or otherwise?


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 08:11:28 GMT
Subject: Re: tuition

Pinchus writes, in response to my question about Yeshiva tuition:

>(1) I attended Torah Vodaath High School 1969-1973 and the tuition was
>$600 per year.  Based on this I'd say your recollecion of $1000 for
>Yeshivah of Flatbush is on target.

I would take it as an act of chesed if people would take care to read
what I have to say before responding, and then respond only to what I
said.  I did not attend the Yeshiva of Flatbush, nor did I mention
that institution in my message.  I have nothing against that
institution, nor am I offended by the suggestion that I went there, I
just prefer to not be misrepresented.

>     (a) In days gone by Yeshiva salaries were pittances (not that they
>are great now, but they are reasonable).  My rebbeim were paid under 10K
>per year!
>     (b) There were no pensions for rebbeim and no social security.

This caused tuition to go up ten times?

>    (c) Construction and real estate costs are much higher than in the

Many yeshivot already own property on which a building has already
been constructed.

>    (d) The majority of yeshivas back then were "community" based. That
>is, they were not privately owned for-profit enterprises.

I'm afraid that at this point I'm totally in the dark.  Who runs a
Yeshiva for profit?  Who collects the profit?  And if tuitions are
lower in "nonprofit" yeshivot, why don't they compete successfully
with the others?  For that matter, where did the "nonprofits" go?

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon."
/ nysernet.org                       Stuart Schoffman


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 16:53:26 -0400
Subject: Yeshiva Tuition and Tax Deductions

As one whose finances are in a hopeless spiral due to Yeshiva tuitions,
I am incensed by the lack of responsiveness of Yeshiva administrators to
the plight of the barely-middle-class. I do not see why the following is
not attempted as a partial solution:

Let there be a new tuition policy formulated, where tuition is
officially set at a low figure (say $1800 yearly), with the stipulation
requiring parents to raise charitable contributions to the Yeshiva for
the amount which would bring the total to the actual costs (say, another
$6000). This would then allow the parent community to solicit
contributions from each other legitimately.  Indeed such a "tax" is
already extant for auxiliary costs such as Dinners, etc., where parents
are required to either "get" ads or "give" money to the tune of several
hundred dollars. While it is true that some of us cannot or will not
solicit ads, contributions are easier solicited since tax deductions are
available to ordinary citizens and parents, and are not limited to
businesses who wish to advertise.

I may be ignorant of tax law or other legal implications here. But the
callous attitude of the Yeshiva administrations I have encountered is
deplorable.  The middle class golden cow has been bled dry.

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


End of Volume 14 Issue 30