Volume 14 Number 48
                       Produced: Mon Jul 25 18:26:40 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Anesthetic and Milah
         [Ira Rosen]
Baruch Hashem L'Olam and V'Shamru
         [Alan Zaitchik]
Eating Dairy after Meat
         [Michael Shimshoni]
         [Abe Perlman]
Having More Children
         [Lawton Cooper]
Mahane Yisrael
         [Steven Friedell]
         [Eli Turkel]
Pre War Telz
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Six and Three Hours
         [Binyomin Segal]
Source of Quotation
         [David Curwin]
Straightening Shofarot
         ["Jay Shayevitz"]
Tzitzis - Another dimension
         [Michael Steinman]


From: Ira Rosen <irosen@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 94 21:53:23 EDT
Subject: Anesthetic and Milah

        Shimon Schwartz asked about the halachic implications of
performing a brit milah with anesthetic (only accepted b'dieved by my
great-grandfather, Rav Alter Shaul Pfeffer) while following this with a
prick that would draw blood (the method accepted in conversions where
circumcision had already taken place).  Would this be accepted
        I am no halachic authority, however, there seems to be at least
one problem with that logic.  The only reason (as far as I understand)
for the blood drawing prick on conversion is that a true brit milah
isn't possible, in other words, we must rely on this alternative even
though it wouldn't have been accepted lechatchila if a circumcision
hadn't already been performed.  The loophole raised relies on the
acceptance of a b'dieved method lechatchila - ie. using anesthetic for
the original brit milah (accepted b'dieved) then relying on a pin prick
in a case where if one was not trying to skirt the law, it would not be
an acceptable method.
        We are left with the question: can we as religious jews accept a
method of obsevance that is only accepted b'dieved if it is used
lechatchila?  (Can we blame the infant for the loophole searching of his
father - upon whom the commandment sits? -- or -- does the child get
credit for being circumcised [b'dieved] but the father not get credit
for fulfilling the mitzvah [lechatchila]?)
        I have no idea what the answers to these queries are (or if they
are even intelligeble at this point).  I'd love to hear any and all
        - Ira Rosen


From: Alan Zaitchik <ZAITCHIK@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 22:36:36 -0400
Subject: Baruch Hashem L'Olam and V'Shamru

In response to David Curwin's question (v 14 # 15) concerning
the omission of Baruch Hashem L'Olam and V'Shamru (and other verses 
added for the other holidays) in the Ma'ariv prayer... it's interesting
that the standard Siddur of Nusach Chabad includes them but in the small
print directs one not to say Baruch Hashem L'Olam, whereas it says
that those who do not say V'Shamru "yesh la'hem al mah she'yismochu"
(have good grounds for their practice) (from memory so excuse any
Perhaps some Lubavitcher MJ'ers can explain why the difference in
phraseology here. What does the Shulkhan Aruch of the Rav say?
a zaitchik


From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 94 10:58:28 +0300
Subject: Re: Eating Dairy after Meat

<DrJason@...> (Mina Rush) wrote about the length of time people wait
before eating  Dairy after Meat.  I  am puzzled by the  mathematics of
the reasons brought in the "in depth shiur" she quoted:

> In the time of the Gemara when the six hour mandatory waiting time was
>established, it was customary for people to eat only two meals a day.
>Each meal separated by a time span of 6 hours.  Since the prohibition
>was against eating milk and meat at the same meal, the minhag developed
>around the time between the meals (not an arbitrary period, but a
>practical one) Now it is customary to eat three meals a day.  Each meal
>is separated by a time span of approximately three hours, hence the
>custom of waiting only three hours between meat and dairy.  Like I said,
>there are no sources we found to corroborate this, it just came out of
>brainstorming.  It leads one to wonder what will happen if we ever
>decide to follow the nutritionists advice and develop the custom of five
>smaller meals during the day instead of three large ones!

I only wish to point out if indeed people used to eat only two meals a
day, the  time between  meal A and  B being six  hours, then  the time
interval between meal B  and A of the next day was  18 hours.  Is that
plausible? I know  that it can be  done.  The custom for  "now" as she
brings it,  of three meals  (A, B, C)  separated by three  hours would
also result  in an interval of  18 hours between "today's"  meal C and
meal A  of "tomorrow".  There  seems to  be something, as  someone who
lives "now", that I cannot accept  in this form of reasoning (also the
three, three hour difference meals do  not seem to reflect present day

 Michael Shimshoni


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 94 2:23:48 EDT
Subject: Gavra/Cheftza

>There is a high-tech paperback on Brisk sold in Bookstores by Rabbi
>Wachtfogel which presumes to summarize the Brisk method comprehensively.

It is my humble opinion seconded by one of my Roshei Yeshiva that this
book about the Brisker derech is interesting as a description.  However,
it in no way is a text from which one can learn to apply the Brisker
Derch.  It is our view that this can only be achieved by spending time
learning with one who applies it regularly and thereby, by example,
learn to apply it himself.

A Gutte Voch,
Mordechai Perlman


From: <Lawton_Cooper@...> (Lawton Cooper)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94  16:46:24 EDT
Subject: Having More Children

I am profoundly saddened by the recent discussion about the pros and
cons of having more children vis a vis one's ability to afford a day
school or Yeshiva education for the children one already has.

Jeremy Nussbaum has made a strong argument from an economic viewpoint
that more children on partial or full scholarship isn't going to make or
break most Jewish schools.  One could make counter arguments, I'm sure.

What disturbs me, though, is that little if anything has been said about
the overriding need of the Jewish people for greater numbers, and
certainly greater numbers of observant Jews.  Rabbi Berel Wein, in his
tape on the Holocaust, quotes one of the Chassidic rebbes as saying that
since WWII there are a million and a half neshamos (souls) of Jewish
children floating around looking for a body to occupy in this world.
There are a variety of reasons for choosing to have fewer children than
one might, including psychological ones, but if we all kept a global
view of Jewish history in mind, there would be more Orthodox Jews in the
next generation.  What could be more important than that?


From: Steven Friedell <friedell@...>
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 94 22:39:06 EDT
Subject: Mahane Yisrael

Has anyone seen the term "Mahane Yisrael" used either in the sense of
"Jewish community" or "ghetto."  I am familiar with its meaning in the
Bible and the Talmud--in the Bible it referred to the camp in the
desert; in the Talmud it described the area inside the walls of
Jerusalem other than the Temple Mount.
 But I have seen two responsa where the term is used either to mean
"Jewish community" or "ghetto" and I wondered if this was unique.  The
two responsa are Maharam of Lublin 61 and Maharshakh 4:31.  Thank you.


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:55:36 -0400
Subject: Pacifism

     Yechezkel Schatz writes

>>   Life isn't easy, and fulfilling a 3000 year old dream, the destiny of
>> a people, can't be done overnight.  But we must believe in what we are
>> doing.  Rather than look for so-called "realistic solutions" for the
>> Arab-Israeli conflict which would go against everything we believe in as
>> Jews, we must strive to be "shalem" (at peace, sounds better in Hebrew)
>> with ourselves

    Over Tisha Ba-av I was listening to some of the tapes of Rabbi Wein
connected with the destruction of the two temples. When discussing
Hillel he makes the strong point that Hillel introduced the notion that
the Jewish people could not fight against every misdeed of Herod
otherwise the Jewish people would be destroyed. Thus, some disciples of
Shammai removed a golden eagle from the Temple walls that Herod had
constructed and in turn Herod had them burned alive. Hillel convinced
the people to avoid the issue and let history punish Herod.

     Following, Hillel, Rav Yochanan ben Zakkai and virtually all later
generations of Chazal the Jewish people have chosen to go with the
"realistic solution" even at great cost. The example of Massada is the
exception rather than the rule.



From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 11:59:43 -0400
Subject: Pre War Telz

Saul Djangoly asks about attituteds and warmth in prewar Telz. I am a
grandson of a prewar Telzer with access to a great deal of very
interesting and intense correspondence between my grandfather zt"l and
the Yeshiva and his chaverim in the field (writeen after he becme a Rov
in Switzerland) I think the intense close relations were generated by a
close connection to a special idealism and ideology that were bred in
the Yeshiva, including the at-the-time novel "Machashava'dik" derech in
the Yeshiva, and a commitment to lifelong Avodas Hashem according to
each person's ability in his surroundings based on their personal
strengths and situations. That kind of idealism and ideology is long
dead and bureid, and, indeed, with the exception of the other ?Mussar
Yeshivos, ie Slobodka and Novardok, probably didn't really exist on a
great scale in the Lithuanian Yeshivos to begin with.


From: <bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:50:31 -0600
Subject: Six and Three Hours

Meir Lehrer writes:

>   As a matter of fact, Rav Ovadia Yosef brings this down (although I
>can't remember where) as the Sfardi psak. He says to wait 6 full hours
>for red meat and 3 full-hours for chicken. Since I don't remember which
>sefer he brought it down in I also don't remember the reasoning he gave
>for it.

I found this very surprising, so I started looking around. I do _not_
own Yabiah Omer, but I own a set of Yechaveh Daas, so I looked there. In
there, I found two interesting things:

1. In a few places, Rav Ovadia Yosef makes it clear that the basic psak
for sephardim is like "Maran HaBais Yosef". (Although he does leave room
for a kula for sick & nursing to wait less time) This point is important
because the Bais Yosef paskens 6 hours explicitly for meat & chicken.

2. Rav Ovadia Yosef discusses the chumrah of waiting for meat after
cheese - in this regard he does make a distinction between chicken &

So, while "lo ra'eesi ayno raya" (saying I did not see it does not prove
it to be false) I would appreciate help tracking down this elusive
distinction between 6/3 hours re meat/chicken.



From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:17:36 -0400
Subject: Source of Quotation

Does anyone know the source of the following quotation:
"The difference between Jewish and non-Jewish thinkers is that non-Jewish
thinkers try to show how original they are, and those that study them try
to show how they weren't original. Jewish thinkers, however, say that they
are not original, while their students show the originality in their thought."


From: "Jay Shayevitz" <Jay.Shayevitz@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:51:03 -0400
Subject: Straightening Shofarot

I am actually asking this question in the name of Rabbi Aharon
Goldstein, of Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Before Rosh HaShana each year, our local JCC sponsors a so-called
"Apples and Honey" fair, to enable Jews in the community who would
normally not have much to do with the chagim to at least come away with
an idea about the richness of our traditions and symbolisms.

Rabbi Goldstein, who operates our local CHABAD house with his wife and
children, runs a shofar-making booth, which is actually quite a big hit
at the fair.  He makes shofarot out of actual horns from ruminant
animals, and gives them out to the kids who stop by.

He finds that the horn close to the tip is usually quite solid for a
significant length, and the tips are often curved or spiralled, making
drilling difficult.  This means that he must cut the tips off, thus
shortening the amount of horn remaining significantly.

He asks, is there a way to straighten the horn, so that he need not cut
off the tips prior to driling a core?  He spoke to a shofar-maker in Tel
Aviv who mentioned that a chemical is available which will do the job,
yet preserve the hardness of the horn.  This shofar-maker would not
reveal the name of the chemical, however.

Please mail your advice directly to the poster.  Thank you.

Jay Shayevitz


From: <ex134@...> (Michael Steinman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 18:37:35 -0400
Subject: Tzitzis - Another dimension

The subject of tallit katan has been discussed recently, with general
agreement that A) any garment with 4 corners must have tzitzis, & B)
while it is not a requirement l'chatchila (originally), our custom is to
wear such a garment specifically for the mitzva involved. What hasn't
been addressed is the SIZE required, beyond agreeing that it doesn't
have to be big enough to wrap oneself in. Specifically, what's the
minimum required?

I have always felt that the "standard" size worn by most frum men is
awkward & uncomfortable (especiallly in summer). When I have attempted
to ask why smaller garments are considered unacceptable, the response
has usually been "I learned that it must be x inches by y inches"
without any source quoted. The problem is, I've never been able to
figure out if this is a halachic or hashkafic response, i.e., does it
really mean "A ben-Torah in our yeshiva should wear one this big".
(Similar to asking a rabbi in a girl's yeshiva how long skirts should be

The questions which I'd like to see discussed in MJ-land are:
1. What are the sources for any "minimum"?
2. If a minimum exists, does that mean a garment smaller than it would NOT
require tzitzis, even if it has 4 corners?
3. Why is there a general feeling that larger garments are considered
better? (this is probably an offshoot of the recent discussion on chumrot)

- Michael Steinman


End of Volume 14 Issue 48