Volume 14 Number 59
                       Produced: Sat Jul 30 23:22:45 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bibliographical  Advice
         [Thomas Divine]
Dairy after Meat
         [Abe Perlman]
Minhag Hagra
         [Abe Perlman]
Old Carlebach Tapes
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Producing Gedolim
         [Eli Turkel]
Secondary Consideartions in Hallacha
         [Sam Juni]
Waiting 6 hours
         [Joseph Steinberg]


From: <TMDIVINE@...> (Thomas Divine)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:13:47 -0400
Subject: Bibliographical  Advice

Can anyone help me locate classical sources on Judaism's approach to the
developmentally disabled, i.e. those who are mentally impaired.  I have
in mind a reference to the developmentally disabled as God's special
"vessels" who require special care, treatment, and concern.  Does this
ring a bell with anybody?  Also, any reference to the halacha regarding
the disabled would be very helpful.  Thanks.


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 21:43:37 EDT
Subject: Dairy after Meat

   I was happy to see that some people liked the posting of a brief
summary of the relevant Halachos of waiting after eating meat before
partaking of dairy foods.

   I neglected to mention that the Ramo in Yoreh Deah, Siman 89, Se'if
1, comments that in his area of the world the custom was only to wait 1
hour but he himself states (and today this is the accepted Halacha in
normal circumstances) that those who are careful do wait 6 hours and
that this is the proper course of action.  It is interesting to note
that the custom to wait 1 hour (as quoted above in the Ramo) is itself a
chumra on what the Poskim of Germany & France ruled (i.e. Rabbeinu Tam,
Rav Zerachia Halevi (Baal Hameor), Hagohos Ashri, Hagohos Mordechai)
that all the Chachmei Tzorfas (France) were accustomed to eat meat,
bentch, wash their hands and mouths thoroughly and eat a new meal of
dairy foods immediately afterwards.  As I quoted in my last posting, the
Zohar is apparently the source for the one hour delay.  Perhaps the Ramo
took this into account.

   Meir Lehrer writes:

>As a matter of fact, Rav Ovadia Yosef brings this down (although I
>can't remember where) as the Sfardi psak. He says to wait 6 full hours
>for red meat and 3 full-hours for chicken. Since I don't remember which
>sefer he brought it down in I also don't remember the reasoning he gave
>for it. Since all of my sefarim are still locked away in a lift at the
>Sachnut warehouse in Zriffin, I also can't check my Ben Ish Chai for
>further references, but I'd check there if I were you (assuming you
>have access to it).

   This statement is slightly incorrect.  Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita brings
down in Yabia Omer, Chelek 6, Yoreh Deah, Siman 4, Paragraph 9, that the
Meiri ( a late Rishon) writes concerning minors that have difficulty
waiting for 6 hours, since a chid's digestive system digests faster and
what is between the teeth digests faster, we are lenient that they need
not wait 6 hours, but may even eat dairy within the 6 hours ( he does
not specify when) because the Gemoro only states that one must wait from
meal to meal.  And he continues that really what he is saying does not
seem right because "meal to meal" which is mentioned in the Gemoro means
plainly 6 hours albeit for a mature person and saying this chiddush
would be "nosato devorecho L'shiurin" (making a ruling very dependent on
circumstance which Chazal generally do not do, they make a ruling for
the general public as a whole and not for each person separately),
nevertheless FOR FOWL it seems proper to rule in this manner ( that
minors need not wait 6 hours) because FOWL itself digests quicker than

   Rav Ovadia Yosef later ( Paragraph 11) quotes the Ben Ish Chai (Year
2, Parshas Shelach, Paragraph 11) that a sick person even if only
slightly (consult your Competent Local Orthodox Rav), need not wait 6
hours but only the 1 hour as mentioned by the Ramo.  The Chasam Sofer
says (Responsa Yoreh Deah Siman 73), that minors are no worse than one
who is slightly sick and onbe should be lenient with minors. Rav Ovadia
Yosef cuts the age at 6 years old.

   Rav Ovadia Yosef does say in Paragraph 13 that one can be lenient
regarding FOWL even regarding adults but only in regard to being able to
eat dairy afterwards after 5 1/2 hours.  That is, one must wait 6 hours
exactly for BEEF and only 5 1/2 hours for FOWL and for this he relied on
the Meiri.

   By the way, this will only be good, maybe, for Sepharadim.
Ashkenazim will have to consult their own leading Poskim.

   Yosef Bechhofer writes:

>The logic given by Mina Rush for the three hour custom, varying times
>between meals, is noted by the Great 18th century Ottoman posek, Rabbi
>David Pardo.  The actual three hour time frame, to the best of my
>knowledge, appears only once in the Rishonim, in the Issur vaHeter of
>Rabbeinu Yerucham in the back of his Toldos Adam v'Chava, I believe
>siman 28. I heard this in the name of the great German Rabbi Yonah
>Merzbach, who also added that it is probably a printer's error!

   Rav Ovadia Yosef does not quote Rabbeinu Yerucham but does say the
following from Rav David Pardo from his sefer Mizmor L'david (Siman 89).

   Rav David Pardo brings the Pri Chodosh who states concerning even
adults that one is not required to wait exactly 6 hours but that in the
winter when the days are short one can eat meat in the morning and dairy
in the afternoon or meat in the afternoon and dairy in the evening even
though only 4 hours have elapsed in between.  And concerning that Pri
Chodosh, Rav Dovid Pardo writes that from this continued on the custom
in many places not to wait even in the summer more than 3 hours since it
is permitted in the winter ( I guess in those places where the day only
allowed 3 hours between meals).  And since it is permitted in the winter
we see that the time stretch is irrelevant.  Rav Ovadia Yosef quotes the
Minchas Yaacov and Meorei Ohr who concur with Rav Dovid Pardo.


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 16:12:13 EDT
Subject: Minhag Hagra

   David Curwin asks regarding the sefer Ma'aseh Rav containing minhogim of
the Vilna Gaon:

>a) Does anyone know the source of this book? Was it written by the Gra
>or his students? Was it written in his lifetime or after his death?

   The book is printed with editions of Siddur Hagro Ishei Yisroel.
Don't ask me why this siddur is called Siddur Hagro, the siddur sure
doesn't follow Nusach Hagro.

   Ma'aseh Rav was written by his students but I don't know who exactly.
All I do know is that the students must have held Rav Chaim of Volozhin
in high regard because they received a Haskomo (approbation) from him to
the work.  >rom that Haskomo and the other Haskomos it is readily seen
that it was written after the petira of the Gaon because they speak of
the Gra "Zatzal" which is something only referred to someone who is here
no longer.

   David, you write:

>Having gone to a yeshiva that strongly follows minhag ha'gra, having
>found the Gra's arguments extremely convincing, and seeing how the
>major achronim seem to see the Gra as the last word (Mishna Brura,
>Aruch HaShulchan), I tend to try to follow Minhag HaGra whenever

   Do your father and paternal grandfather also follow Minhag Hagra or
is this your own idea.  What I mean is, shouldn't one follow the
minhogim of one's family despite the brilliance of someone else's?

   You ask:

>c) In Ma'aseh HaRav it mentions  that "ein kiddush ela b'makom seuda"
>(kiddush can only be made at a meal) refers to a real meal, not mzonot. This
>rule is mentioned both in the Mishna Brura and the Aruch HaShulchan.  But I
>have never seen it followed, even in Israel, where Minhag HaGra is very

    My brother just came back from learning in Lakewood East (a branch
of Lakewood yeshiva of New Jersey in Eretz Yisroel) and he says he has
seen tons of people who are makpid on this din.

Mordechai Perlman


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 01:04:23 -0400
Subject: Old Carlebach Tapes

There have been modest stirrings about where one can obtain old
Carlebach tapes, etc., bazeman hazeh. I would love to know this as well.
Vintage Carlebach is so superior to the trash that passes for Jewish
music nowadays! If, indeed, some one on MJ knows of a source for these
tapes, I am sure many of us would be grateful to know.


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 09:22:58 -0400
Subject: Producing Gedolim

     Several people have mentioned that one of the main purposes of
Lithuanian style yeshivot is to produce gedolim. I have even heard stories
of elemntary schools in Boro Park that would only accept students who could
become eventual gedolim. While I disagree with this approach on an
elementary school level it is perfectly legitimate for some yeshivot 
(e.g. Ponovich) to concentrate on producing gedolim. On the American scene
there are the Harvards etc. and the community colleges .

     My bigger qualm is whether these yeshivot have produced any
gedolim.  While we have many roshei yeshiva I am not sure how many
"superstars" we have below the age of 50-60 (great gedolim are usually
recognized at an early age).  My personal theory is that to become a
gadol one needs a degree of freedom.  Thus, for example, it has been
found that Japan does not produce great geniuses because their studies
are too regimented. Thet are great engineers etc. but not inventors.
Similarly, in todays yeshiva world the students are taught early that
one does not disagree with earlier gedolim. I have heard several times
the question "who gave Rav Chaim Naeh the right to disagree with Chazon
Ish about the size of shiurim?" . If Chazon Ish says something then one
has a right to disagree only by bringing other achronim that disagree,
one cannot use ones own logic to disagree with Chazon Ish.  Rav Moshe
Feinstein's greatness was his willingness to develop his own approach,
act on it, and ignore all the complaints. Todays kollel students are
good at synthesizing, learning many different opinions. They are not
encouraged to come up with their own new approach. When Rav Chaim
Soloveitchik first came up with his new "Brisker" way of learning he was
severly critcized for it.  Even his own father found it difficult to
understand. Others denigrated it as "chemistry". It is only due to his
independence that he pursued this path and influenced the yeshiva world.

     This complaint is against yeshivot of different background. While
yeshivot in Israel "overstress" the Chazon Ish, Merkaz harav can
overstress the Torah of Rav Kook. One gets the inpression that something
is considered there only if it is connected somehow with Rav Kook. Rav
Soloveitchik continually stressed the importance of each person to think
out matters for himself, whether in Talmud or in any other aspect of the
world. On the other side, in a shiur I go to by a rav from Bnei Brak he
stresses the prohibition of thinking for oneself (and so one is
forbidden to read secular newspapers, listen to speeches from
politicians etc. - because of their views) .  One should just do what
the gedolim say without thinking. Such an attitude makes it harder to
produce future gedolim.



From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 20:11:51 -0400
Subject: Secondary Consideartions in Hallacha

In his posting of 7/20/94, Rabbi Irwin Haut presents a category of
Hallacha which I find intriguing. Rabbi Haut, as I read it, refers to a
string of activities (a convert striking his gentile father, stealing
from a supermarket, cheating on exams) which may not be prohibited by
Hallacha (for the sake of argument), but which are prohibited by local
secular law (and I presume are ethically contraindicated).  The
principle Rabbi Haut mentions is worded as "so that it may not be said"
that Jewish law is less just than non-Jewish law.

There is a built-in issue of levels of prohibition in this line of
ruling.  It is implied that the derivation of the prohibition is based
on what "people" will say rather than on a-priori Hallachic
consideration re these acts which are unethical.

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 12:29:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Waiting 6 hours

Someone posted:
:In the time of the Gemara when the six hour mandatory waiting 
:time was established,

What are you talking about??? The Gemarah is about as unclear about
waiting as is possible. Tosfaot (hundreds of years after the Gemarah) says
that one must only wait till after benching -- i.e., wait 0 hours!!! 
(From which the Dutch custom of 1 hour comes...) The Gemarah says that one
Rav said that he was not as religious as his father -- his father waited
approx. 24 hours and he only waited between meals... Germans wait 3, 
Dutch wait 1... I know of NO ruling in the Gemarah that says six...

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End of Volume 14 Issue 59