Volume 14 Number 64
                       Produced: Tue Aug  2  0:59:27 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

3,4, and 5 hours
         ["S.Z. Leiman"]
Chassidim and Israel
         [Warren Burstein]
         [Hillel Eli Markowitz]
Kabbalistic Healing
         [Abe Perlman]
Machlokes re facts
         [Sam Juni]
Source for Three Hours Wait between meat and milk
         [Shmuel Markovits]


From: "S.Z. Leiman" <szlyu@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 05:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 3,4, and 5 hours

Mina Rush (volume 14, number 38) suggested a rationale  for the "3 hour 
wait" based upon a change from 2 meals a day (in talmudic times) 
separated by 6 hours to 3 meals a day (in early modern times) separated 
by 3 hours. Yosef Bechhofer (volume 14, number 43) added that the "logic 
given by Mina Rush for the three hour wait, varying times between meals, 
is noted by the great 18th century Ottoman posek, Rabbi David Pardo." 
Michael Shimshoni (volume 14, number 48) was puzzled by this theory, and 
correctly so, for it does not reflect past or present reality. 

For the sake of accuracy, it should be noted that Rabbi David Pardo, in his
Mizmor le-David, Livorno, 1818, p. 61a, did not mention the notion of 3 
meals per day, nor did he imagine that lunch ordinarily comes 3 hours 
after  breakfast, and supper three hours after lunch. He simply suggested 
--assuming that lunch is taken at midday and supper after dusk-- that one 
must take into account the shorter winter days of the year. This was 
first suggested by R. Hezekiah da Silva (d. 1695), in his Peri Hadash to 
Shulhan Arukh Yoreh De'ah 89:1, comment 6 (Jerusalem, 1991, p. 174b). 
Both rabbis explain that the talmudic requirement that one must wait 
"from one meal to another" before consuming dairy after meat takes into 
account every day of the year, including short winter days. Hence the 
minimum halakhic wait is approximately 3 (according to R. David Pardo) or 
approximately 4 (according to R. Hezekiah da Silva) hours. Just how short 
the time span between lunch and supper would be on a short winter day 
depends, of course, on geographic location. Once the minimum time span 
was established, it could be applied to any day of the year and to all 
locations. Indeed, if one examines the tables for midday and sunset in R. 
Meir Pozna, Or Meir (London, 1973) for the geographic locations 
where the above-mentioned rabbis resided, a time span of 3 to 4 hours 
between midday and sunset on the short winter days is commonplace.

Since zero (see Rabbenu Tam at Hullin 104b and especially the Baal 
ha-Maor on the Rif at Hullin 105a), 1, 3, 4, 6, and 24 have been 
mentioned, I trust that it is not inappropriate to mention 5, first 
suggested by R. Menahem Meiri (d. 1316), Magen Avot (London, 1909), 
chapter 9, pp. 46-49. All other suggested time spans between meat and 
dairy (and there are quite a few), to the best of my knowledge, are 
confined to the aharonim (i.e. later authorities). Those harboring 
doubts about their own minhag should certainly consult their LOR.

						Shnayer Leiman


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 09:05:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Chassidim and Israel

Isaac Balbin asks for sources for my contention that the correct way to
deal with police brutality is to use the Israeli courts.

Well I don't have any.  Do I need a halachic source that one should look
both ways before crossing the road?  Does he have a halchic problem with
my suggestion?  One often hears about Charedi bodies that make recourse
to the Israeli courts, one assumes that they have permission to do so,
and would also get this permission before filing a suit against the
police for brutality, if in fact such is needed - if one is robbed, does
one have to go to a Beit Din to get permission? 

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon."
/ nysernet.org                       Stuart Schoffman


From: <HEM@...> (Hillel Eli Markowitz)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 10:48:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cheating

Just one minor point.  My dausghter has informed me her halacha class 
last year found a teshuvah by Rav Moshe in Igros Moshe that cheating is 
both gnaivas daas and gnaivah.  I don't have the exact citation or any 
more details.

|  Hillel Eli Markowitz    |     Im ain ani li, mi li?      |
|  <H.E.Markowitz@...>   |   V'ahavta L'raiecha kamocha   |


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 12:49:16 EDT
Subject: Kabbalistic Healing

   David Steinberg wrote on July 11:

>I personally went to a Mekubal on several occasions, a number of years ago.
>In the course of our conversations he told me things that no-one else could
>know.  He also seemed to KNOW the bracha I needed.  On one occassion I came to
>him believing I had a health problem.  He responded (correctly it turned out)
>that I had nothing to be concerned about but gave me a bracha for something
>entirely different which became an issue months later.

   I remember when I was in Yeshiva high school and a fellow arrived in
Toronto who apparently could look at Mezuzas and tell things about the owners
of the house that only the owners knew (Aveiros, problems etc.).    In many
cases he was correct and in some he was way off.  He left eventually back to
Eretz Yisroel after stirring up the city .  Later, we heard that Rav Shlomo
Zalman Auerbach and Rav Ovadia Yosef (both who are not novices in the field of
Kabbala) stated that one should keep away from such people.

   David continues:  

>There is the story of the Rov who is told the Mofsim (wonder tales)
>attributed to a Chassidishe Rebbe by someone who obviously didn't believe the
>tales.  The Rov responded that if the question is 'was it possible' then the
>answer is that for a Koddosh (holy person) it is of course possible; if the
>question is 'do I believe all the stories' ....

   I once heard in the name of Rav Noach Weinberg, Rosh Hayeshiva of Aish
Hatorah in Yerushalayim when confronted with the challenge that all the
stories about the Baal Shem Tov certainly couldn't have happened.  One, he
didn't live long enough for all the stories to happen and two, they're too 
fanciful.  He replied that if one doesn't believe that each one individually
could have happened, he is an apikorus (an exxageration of course) and if you
believe that they all happened, you're meshuga.

   I also heard in the name of the Divrei Chaim (the first Sanzer Rov, the
first of what later became Bobov and other Chassidic dynasties) that if a
chosid says he saw his Rebbe do something, take it to mean he only heard about
it.  If he says he heard about it, Lo Hoyo V'Lo Nivro (it never happened and
it never will).

   It seems that followers embellish stories about their heroes.  Something
like what chidren do about their parents.  I remember one of my Rebbeim
saying, "The story isn't what counts, it's the message behind it.

   Even among the Litvishe I've heard about it.  My brother told me that one
of the Rebbeim in Lakewood East ( Lakewood in Eretz Yisroel) told him that Rav
Shach told him thusly.  He shouldn't believe anything said in his name unless
he sees it in writing.  My brother said he doesn't know if he should believe
that statement.

Mordechai Perlman 


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 14:18:54 -0400
Subject: Machlokes re facts

Yitz Kurtz (7/22/94) does a fine job moving the discussion, leaving open
a window for related arguments in the philosophical realm.  Disputes re
philosophical principles are acceptable, as Yitz sees it.

I would like to pursue this with the aim of avoiding the question of
preprogramming vs. tabula rasa cognitive models (for now).

Let's take Yitz's examples, accepting (for the sake of argument) his premises
of the philosophical bases of the arguments.
     1. Can we conceive a physical world without its spiritual counter-
        part (attributed to Hillel vs. Shammai)?
     2. Is a fetus formed cephalocaudically or in the reverse sequence
        (related to the spiritual vs. somatic dominance in man, if I
        read Yitz correctly)?
     3. Would G-d use the fires of hell to heat natural springs?

Let us take a hypothetical journey in the development of a Talmudic
scholar (Tanna or Amora) as he begins Cheder (first grade).  Let us
track his education beginning with the Aleph-Bais right through his
graduation and certification as a sage who can deal with the above
vexing issues. In fact, let us trace the development of two such
scholars who are due to end up on the two polarities of any of the above
examples. Can we suggest just where the differential track began? Not in
factual presentation in the curricullum, I presume. Not in analytic
technique, I presume. If we pin philosophical principles as the source
of the divergence, where does it trace from, based on a single source of
Masorah (tradition)? Are different temperaments of the characters in the
Masorah chain responsible for the forking in the road? And if so, is it
dogma that each student accept such temperamental aspects of his Rebbe
and then add his own to the structure?  Might it not be suggested that
it would behoove students not to go along with others' idiosyncratic
(non-Masorah based) additions, much less their own additives?

Lest we are going off the deep end here, a relevant mind exercise would
be to trace an alleged open argument between any of the above-noted
protagonists re any one of the open issues.  Would it encounter a wall
when one will say, for example, "I just cannot believe G-d would use
Hell for the our pleasure," while the other retorts "Well, I am quite
comfortable with the idea"?  Would it not behoove these debaters to
pursue the comfort question?

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: <Shmuel.Markovits@...> (Shmuel Markovits)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 13:56:27 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Source for Three Hours Wait between meat and milk

in MJ Vol 14 #38
>From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
>3) The most vexing question, to me, concerns the various customs people hold
>as far as the time between eating goes. What is the basis for the different
>times? (i.e. the one I've heard is that it's the approximate time it takes
>for the stomach to digest meat). What are the sources for 3 hours vs.
>6 hours vs. 72 minutes and everything else??

<bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal) adds:
>The 3 hour custom is one that is not mentioned in the majority of sources -
>I seem to recall having seen an authoratative explanation, but...

In "Pinas HaHalacha" number 11 (published by Kollel Lubavitch Melbourne,
as "Issues in Practical Halacha" in english on
<prac-halacha@...>) there is an extensive discussion of
the origin of the three hour wait.  A summary of the relevant discussion
and sources are from there as follows: [Disclaimer: translation mistakes
mine, and as always CYLOR]

The Plaisi (89:103) writes the waiting period (between meat and milk) is
to allow for the meat to be digested.

 From this it is be derived that the beginning ("Hascholos") of
digestion is one hour and a fifth (72 min.) and completion of digestion
is after six hours.  Hence derived amounts of waiting time discussed (as
in the gemera) begin at one hour wait and extend to the full waiting
period at completiion of digestion ie six hours.

Some authorities want to extrapolate that a person could wait his
personal "digestion" period. See Sefer Zichron Moshe pg 79 that the
Chasom Sofer felt that during the night period a person digests food
quicker and could wait less than a complete six hours, though after a
"sign from heaven" he said no comprimise should be made on the full six

In the constitution of waiting of six hours there are makilim.

The Yad Ephraim suggests that perhaps we could use fractional hours
(Shosas Zemanyos) and have differential waiting periods in the summer
and winter times ie waiting longer in summer and shorter in winter.i

This becomes extended as is brought down in the Sefer Mizmor L'dovid who
brings from the Darchai Tshuva (106) that this is the reason that the
German and geographically close countries wait for three hours as that
is "six hours" in winter time and what is sufficiant for winter is
sufficiant for summer.

It appears that the idea of part of the sixth hour has some validity
based on the above.

Others hold that waiting is to be five and half hours , others will
include the sixth hour (based on a Rashbam), others say that these
leniencies (above) can only be allowed in pressing circumstances (sha'as

Many Poskim, however hold that the six hours are exact, regardless of
the time of day (Chasom Sofer) or the season (Degal Mravva, Yad Ephraim,
Plaisi in Pschie Tshuva 103 and more ).

Note also the Aruch Hashulchan warns against changing from waiting six
hours to a shorter amount of time.

<Shmuel.Markovits@...>(Shmuel Markovits)  
International Network Management Systems       Ph: +612 3393681
Telstra/OTC Australia - Paddington Intl. Telcom. Centre, Sydney 


End of Volume 14 Issue 64