Volume 14 Number 70
                       Produced: Tue Aug  9 23:32:04 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Avraham's wives
         [Rivka Goldfinger]
Cheating and Curves
         [Kevin Schreiber]
Chicken and Milk
         [Winston Weilheimer]
Climbing the Fence to see the Game
         [Michael Broyde]
Conferences on Shabbat
         [Aleeza Esther Berger]
Day School Tuitions
         [Susan Slusky]
G-d's Knowledge vs. Torah
         [Sam Juni]
Kedusha V'kaddish
         [Abe Perlman]
Psukim Fragments (2)
         [Mordechai Torczyner, Moshe J. Bernstein]
Shalom Aleichem/Aleichem Shalom
         [Danny Skaist]
Wonder Drops for Fasting
         [Joseph Steinberg]


From: <RGOLDFINGER@...> (Rivka Goldfinger)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 1994 15:24:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Avraham's wives

In the first perek of Divrei Hayomim 1, the navi refers to Keturah as the
pilegesh of Avraham.  The Radak says that this is to emphasize that the only
_real_ wife of Avraham was Sara, and that all his other "wives" were really
only pilagshim (concubines).  Has anyone heard of a way to reconcile this 
with the fact that in Bereishis, the Torah refers to Ketura and Hagar as
actual wives (eesha)?  I looked in Oonkeloos, and he translates the word 
eesha the same way for Hagar, Keturah, and Sara.

Rivka Goldfinger


From: Kevin Schreiber <kschreib@...>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 08:50:52 -0400
Subject: Cheating and Curves

	I would like to respond to what was written in a recent posting
regarding cheating. Paraphrasing what was said "By allowing Teachers to
curve, they are cheating the students from grades they rightfully
	In some cases this might be true by there are clear cases to
where this couldn't be held.  In many upper level science courses, the
mean on exams turn out to be in the 40's, 50's, and 60's.  This is not
because the students don't try, it's just that the coursework is
impossible.  Does this mean that over half the class should fail?  That
is clearly absurd.
	If a teacher uses many years of exams to determine a curve and
then uses that curve to determine the grades, a fair distribution
usually occurs.

			-Kevin M. Schreiber


From: <TAXRELIEF@...> (Winston Weilheimer)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 16:13:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Chicken and Milk

In this discussion of meat and milk, I have a question.  Can someone
describe the process of seething a chicken in the milk of it's mother?
Nu..  so how come chicken is not parve?


From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 15:48:57 -0400
Subject: Climbing the Fence to see the Game

Someone raise the question of the child going to the baseball game who
loses his money and climbs through the fence to see the game, intending
to come back latter and pay.  This is called "sho'al shelo medat"
borrowing without permission, and is a form of theft.  The fact that it
is a base ball game makes no difference (see my previous post on cable
television and theft of services).  Change the facts a little.  Instead
of a base ball game, turn it into a candy bar.  If the child wishes to
buy the candy or see the game on credit (with a promise to pay), he must
ask permission from the owner.  Otherwise, it is theft or close to


From: Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 12:18:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Conferences on Shabbat

Considering the number of business travel requests for information I guess
mail-jewish readers have a lot of experience with this.  What are the
parameters of attending conferences on shabbat? Can you go at all? WAtch
but not present your paper? The issue here is not actual
melachah but work (the English meaning).  What are variuos opinions on
this subject that people know of? I suspect the answer is pretty negative...

aliza berger


From: <segs@...> (Susan Slusky)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 09:07:06 EDT
Subject: Day School Tuitions

In Vol 14, No. 67, Bob Klein said he'd welcome a discussion of Day
School from the point of view of parents, teachers, board members and
administrators, but questioned whether mljewish was the appropriate
forum. I think it absolutely is the appropriate forum. Unless someone's
changed the charter while I wasn't looking, mljewish is not limited to
scholarly discussion.  It is only limited in that it excludes
discussions that implicitly or explicitly question the validity of
halacha. Day school tuitions, policies, curricula, reputations, etc. are
a topics that is of great interest to many of us because we have
children or plan to and are concerned about their education. So let's
talk more about day schools, not less.  I'm all ears.

-- Susan Slusky


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 15:11:12 -0400
Subject: G-d's Knowledge vs. Torah

In his post (14:67), Robert Braun sees a paradox in the fact that G-d
knows the future and the non-futility of actually having history
occur. (I hope that I am reading him correctly.  I have two comments:

  1. Leaving the other G-d-like qualities out, the mere ability to see
     the future (e.g., reverse time travel) does not obviate events.
     The future is seen only because it occured; it is just that future
     is observed in the past. (I am leaving aside the issue of
     prediction based on current dynamics, which rules out free will.)

  2. Why assume that History is played out just for G-d to see the
     outcome?  Any creation (even human ones) should not be presumed to
     have only an informational exercise. It is likely that the
     experience is the intention.

     A crass example: Why bother eating an ice cream if you know just
     how it will taste?

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 94 23:17:46 EDT
Subject: Kedusha V'kaddish

   I recently asked concerning the source of the general custom of Chazonim to
say Kodosh, Boruch & Yimloch in Kedusha along with the congregation.  One of
my friends from yeshiva, Hillel Chaim Israel <ag723@...>,  saw
my posting and answered with a flood of information.  However, it contained a
lot of untranslated Loshon Kodesh and understandably, Avi Feldblum did not
post it.  I appreciate his sending me the posting and have endeavoured to
translate it for the benefit of all.  Thanks, Avi.  

    (Parantheses mine)
  "In the Biur Halacha (the elucidatory comments of the Chofetz Chaim on his
own Shulchan Aruch commentary, Mishna Berura), (siman 125, the beginning words
'Ela Shoskin') it is written:
   "It is doubtful whether the chazon is obligated to recite Kodosh & Boruch 
together with the congregation because he cannot remove himself from the group
for whom he had immediately preceded the Kedusha with the word 'Nikadesh' (We
will sanctify).  Therefore, how can he afterwards say Kodosh separately from
the minyan?  And if one should say that since the chazon is motzi (being a
messenger to fulfill a mitzva for another) the group, he has the status of a
group,  that is not an acceptable excuse because Chazal ruled that each one of
the congregation, despite the fact that he listens to the chazan, must say
Kodosh & Boruch himself .  Nevertheless, it is possible that since one who has
not yet completed his silent Shemone Esrei prayer, must be silent during
Kedusha and have the chazan's words of Kedusha in mind so that he can fulfill
the mitzva of saying Kedusha, therefore, the chazan is considered as one who
can aid in being motzi (see above for explanation) others and can therefore
say it afterwards.  And if the chazon, or anyone else for that matter, will
begin to say Kodosh & Boruch before the group finishes their recitation, it is
certainly considered saying it with the group."
   So it seems that his advice is that the chazon should start to say it
aloud, loudly, just before the congregation has finished, so that he'll be
saying it with the congregation and the ones who are still in the midst of
their silent Shemone Esrei prayer will be able to hear.
   I also have a pretty good seifer called Tefilloh KeHilchoso by Rabbi Fuchs
(the famous author of Halichos Bas Yisrael).  In chapter 13 #44 he says "The
chazzan should make sure to say all of kedusha aloud.  Some authorities write
that the verses,  "kodosh", "boruch" and "yimloch" should be said loudly,
together with the congregation."  On the first part, his source is Rav Moshe,
who says (according to him - I haven't looked in Igros Moshe myself yet) that
the chazon should say it presumably with the congregation but louder for those
need the benefit of the chazon's recital (as mentioned above).   On the second
part, he quotes the Biur Halacha which I mentioned, which he says means that
the chazon is permitted to say it after the congregation says theirs.  In that
same note he brings the Emek Halocho, Chazoras HaShats 2, who wonders about
the Biur Halacha, why he didn't see what the Ramban wrote:  "The Chazan says
Kadosh, Boruch and Yimloch together with the congregation without raising his
voice, but the same as the congragation." (I found the Ramban in his
explanation to Maseches Brachos and it it clear to me with my poor knowledge
why the Biur Halacha did not quote the Ramban.  The Ramban is talking about
the Kedusha which is in Uvo L'tzion.) He then quotes the Sefer Zeh HaShulchan
Part 3 in his introduction who explains at length that even according to the
Rambam, the Chazon says Kedusha with the congregation, he may say it louder
than the congregation.  (I personally don't know what he means.  If he means
the RambaN, my comment above applies, if he means the RambaM, the RambaM says
explicitly that he may not raise his voice above the congregation in this
matter.)  He concludes the same way as the Biur Halocho."

Mordechai Perlman


From: Mordechai Torczyner <torczynr@...>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 14:36:49 -0400
Subject: Psukim Fragments

Yechezkel Schatz wrote:
>I don't understand the problem. V'zot HaTorah... is a full pasuk.

One pasuk is "V'zot Hatorah Asher Sam Moshe Lifnei B'nei Yisrael." 
A second pasuk starts "`Al Pi Hashem Yachanu, V`al Pi Hashem Yeesa`u, Et 
Mishmeret Hashem Shamaru," and then finishes "`Al Pi Hashem Biyad Moshe."
Please don't flame my transliteration; I'm off to Eretz Yisrael in a few 
hours BS"D, so I won't see your corrections.

Mordechai Torczyner

From: Moshe J. Bernstein <mjbrnstn@...>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Psukim Fragments

as i recall, nusah haGra fills out the second verse "al pi hashem yahanu 
ve'al pi hashem yissa'u et mishmeret hashem shamaru al pi hashem beyad 
moshe." (Bemidbar 9:23) i don't know the rationale, although i have a vague 
recollection of hearing something on the history of this minhag from 
Professor Daniel Sperber. 
moshe bernstein


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 04:25:09 -0400
Subject: Shalom Aleichem/Aleichem Shalom

>That's because of "ma'aris ayin" (we're concerned that something might
>not look right).  If I greet you by saying Shalom Aleichem, and you
>respond with same words, someone else hearing you but not me might think
>you initiated the greeting and I failed to respond.  But if he hears you
>say Aleichem Shalom, he knows that you were responding to me.

I like it. The only explaination that I have ever heard is that "Shalom" is
also one of the names of G-d, which we don't want to take in vain.  Since
the gemorra says "Hamakdim shalom l'havero, ma'arichim lo yomav" [he who
first extends greetings to his friend will have his life extended].  The
originator of the greetings may use G-d's name, in certainty that he will
live long enough to finish the whole greeting, but the responder has no such
guarentee and therefore leaves G-d's name for the last word of the response.
All this is learned from Boaz, who greeted the workers with " Hashem
emachem" [G-d be with you] and they responed "Y'varechacha Hashem" [may G-d
bless you] (It doesn't work in English).



From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:48:09 -0400
Subject: Wonder Drops for Fasting

What exactly are these 'wonder-drops' for fasting -- and where are they 


End of Volume 14 Issue 70