Volume 14 Number 77
                       Produced: Mon Aug 15 23:16:23 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Mezonos/Hamotzi Rolls (2)
         [Lon Eisenberg, Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund]
Anecdotal Data re Afterlife
         [Sam Juni]
         [Percy Mett]
Fasting with Ease
         [David Charlap]
Kosher microwave ovens?
         [Stephen Phillips]
         [Harry Weiss]
Muqca Question
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Pasuk Fragments and Kedusha
         [David Phillips]
         [Josh Cappell]


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 07:38:05 -0400
Subject: Airline Mezonos/Hamotzi Rolls

Stephen Phillips stated that if receive a mezonoth roll with your meal
and eat it with the meal you must wash and say the full grace.  I didn't
think it was so simple, so I looked it up in the Mishnah Berurah.
Apparently, it is that simple.  So my question is why do those in charge
of kashruth supervision for these meals allow the consumer to be
mislead?  Why bother with a mezonoth roll?

Lon Eisenberg

From: sg04%<kesser@...> (Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 10:59:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Airline Mezonos/Hamotzi Rolls

There is no indication on the Wilton rolls if they are Pas Yisroel or
not. Does anyone know?

Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund		 	   <sgutfreund@...> [MIME]
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA     ftp://ftp.gte.com/pub/circus/home/home.html


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 13:12:54 -0400
Subject: Anecdotal Data re Afterlife

In a recent posting, Eli Turkel refers to anecdotal reports of after-life
and the near-death experience.  I have a knee-jerk reaction to such
data, as I do to data which support Mofsim (miracles) and the
ever-present sixth sense of miracle men.  I have aired these points
before on MJ; my basic point is as follows:

        There is no news-worthiness about negative data in this realm.
        In Eli's example (where patients report events which ocurred
        during anasthesia, thus supporting the notion that they have had
        supernatural access to data), suppose YOU were to witness where a
        near-dead patient reported completely false data (e.g., "While I
        was unconscious, there was a Bar-Mitzvah in the Operating Room").
        Certainly, You would write this off to delerium, and never write
        about it or publicize it.  Thus, the reported (positive) data are
        very selective, and their proportion to negative is probably infin-

        To assert that "most patients tell stories about greeting their
        departed parents" implies a true sampling.  My guess is that "most"
        patients probably report a bunch of irrelevant and bizarre events
        which are (rightfully) ignored by the distressed family members.

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: <P.Mett@...> (Percy Mett)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 07:00:33 -0400
Subject: Apology

I recently posted an item (in connection with watching a baseball game
without paying) which criticized the attempts to derive halocho with
reference to feeling rather than Shulchan Oruch. The posting referred to
a piece by Michael Broyde.

It has been pointed out to me that Michael Broyde did in fact provide a
reference (Choshen Mishpat 363:6-11) in a previous posting (MJ vol 14 no
65) and my criticism is totally misplaced.

I wish to withdraw unreservedly any criticism of Michael Broyde
contained in or implied by my previous posting.

Perets Mett


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 11:45:41 -0400
Subject: Fasting with Ease

After reading a number of comments regarding my posts here, and
numberous private e-mail conversations on the public, I feel I should
say something more.

1) I didn't realize that some people get sick to the point of being
   unable to function (migraines, etc.) from fasting.  But isn't it
   permitted for such people to eat on fast days?  If fasting makes
   you a bed-ridden invalid, then there is probably a more serious
   condition than just being hungry.

2) Actions taken before the fast (like caffeine abstention) so that
   you don't wind up in situation (1) is a good thing.

3) What _is_ in this "wonder drops" substance?  Is it safe?  Have any
   doctors tested it?  Taking drugs to ease a fast can be rather

4) What does this stuff do?  If it's some form of concentrated
   nutrients that provide energy for an entire day, great.  If it's
   some kind of anaesthetic, so you are just as hungry but don't feel
   anything, then it could be very dangerous.  Serious hunger (like
   all pain) is a warning that something is very wrong with your body.
   If you're the kind of person described in (1), and the only thing
   keeping you going is anasthetic, you could be in for some really
   bad medical problems a day later.

<rklapper@...> (Robert Klapper) writes:
>Perhaps the point isn't the pain of fasting, but rather the absence of
>eating = transcending the physical?

This argument makes sense.  But are you really transcending the
physical if you simply switch your dependance from food to a drug?


From: <stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 13:13:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Kosher microwave ovens?

> From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
>  I was wondering if anyone has information regarding the (genrally
> accepted?)  halacha that microwave ovens have to be kept kosher (similar
> to keeping range- top stoves and baking ovens kosher). Specifically,
> what are the reasons for this halahca?

I have a Sefer (I cannot recall its name or author, but it is in two
volumes and is in the form of question and answer in hebrew and
english on the laws of meat and milk) which is very strict about
microwave ovens. The author says that a microwave oven may be used
for either milk or meat, but not both. Further, if one wanted to
change its use from one to the other one would have to leave it for a
year before kashering it. From what I can recall, the reason has to
do with the oven being completely enclosed and sealed.

OTOH, however, when we purchased a microwave oven I asked a She'eloh
of a Rov in London who is well known for his expertise in the area of
Kashrus. He told me that the oven itself does not heat up, only the
food. Therefore it is quite in order to use it for both meat and milk
(not at the same time, ofcourse) without any need for kashering
between one and the other. BUT, this does not apply to a microwave
oven that has a heating element (as many do in order to "brown" the
food); this type of oven is treated like an ordinary oven.

N.B. As in all such matters, you must CYLOR.

Stephen Phillips


From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 94 23:01:41 
Subject: Muktza

Francine Glazer asks whether a penknife would make a key chain Muktza.
This question is directly addressed in Shmirat Shabbat chapter 20.
Paragraph 81 says that a penknife with other attachments such as
scissors or nail file is not Muktza and one can use the knife, but not
open the problematic attachments.  The following paragraph, no. 82 says
that a key chain with a nail clipper etc. is not Muktza, though it is
preferable to separate it before Shabbat.

It was an interesting coincidence that I printed the MJ with this
question on Friday to read on Shabbat.  On Friday evening, between
Kabbalat Shabbat and Mariv our Rabbi discusses a few halachot from
Shmirat Shabbat.  These were the Halachot discussed.



From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 94 07:44:04 -0400
Subject: Muqca Question

Fran Glazer asked about a penknife on the keychain?  My quesion is why
is a penknife muqca ("put aside")?  Can't I cut my fruit with it?

Also, why should car keys on the chain make it muqca?  If the main
purpose of the chain is for the keys you use on Shabbath (which it must
be; otherwise why would you even take it), then the car keys are tefelim


From: <davidp@...> (David Phillips)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 12:10:53 -0400
Subject: Pasuk Fragments and Kedusha

I've been lurking for three weeks and really enjoy the discussions on
mail jewish; but, alas, I've been too shy to write.  Now I'd like to
"clear my buffers" and dump out a lot of stuff on a number of topics.
Please excuse my violation of Netiquette as this is my first time.  I'll
try to be good in the future.

1. Pasuk fragments - I'm not familiar with the discussion in the
Tractate B'rachot, but I am familiar with the discussion of it in
Megillah, which may be in a different context.  There the discussion is
what to do about the problem of dividing up the Torah reading for Rosh
Chodesh (the New Moon), and the g'mara concludes that there were two
options - in order to get the requisite 3 verses for two people out of 5
verses - to either repeat verse three (reading 1,2,3 for the first
aliyah, and 3,4,5 for the second) - which is what we do, or to split
verse 3 in half, so that each gets 2 and 1/2 p'sukim, which is close
enough to 3.  The g'mara there concludes that we can't split verse three
because of the same reason quoted repeatedly in m-j, paraphrased: We
can't stop where Moshe didn't stop.  The g'mara also mentions that an
exception was made for teachers of small children, to allow them to end
a lesson without completing a pasuk since it was very difficult to
finish an entire pasuk.  It would seem, therefore, that the problem is
primarily in Torah reading, teaching - and, by extension - to davening
and brachot.  It would probably not be a problem, as someone raised, in
quoting a source, as the g'mara often does quote a fragment.  (To prove
that it apparently is a problem in davening, see the Musaf of Rosh
Hashana where in Malchi'ot (Kingship) and Shofarot (Trumpet) sections,
whole p'sukim are quoted although the reference to these topics is only
a short phrase with the pasuk.)

The problem in Friday night kiddush is therefore real.  (It may also be
a problem for those whoe recite p'sukim before Shabbos daytime's kiddush
- even though many hold that p'sukim should not be recited then -
starting with "Al kain berach..." starts you in the middle of a pasuk.)

2. Kedusha - It seems that two very valid priciples - that of the
Chazzan saying the kedusha with the congregation, and that of him saying
it alone aloud for the benefit of those who are elsewhere in t'fila and
cannot say the kedusha but should listen to the Chazzan - are in direct
conflict, which is why I've heard rabbis pasken both ways.  By the way,
what about the issue of whether the congregation should be saying the
portions marked "Reader" in the siddur, at all?  Isn't that a hefsek
(interuption) in the Kedusha for the congregation to say, for example,
"K'vodo malei olam.."?

--- David "Beryl" Phillips


From: <josh@...> (Josh Cappell)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 18:04:20 -0400
Subject: Shamos

   I have recently subscribed to mail-Jewish and was curious about an
issue raised by the frequent discussion of Limudei Kodesh on internet.
(I do not know if this question has already been dealt with in a
previous issue). My question is: Is one allowed to discard electronic
copies of the Shem HaShem and Divrei Kodesh?  Or should one not use the
internet for Divrei Kodesh at all because destruction is inevitable and
there is no electronic equivalent of 'shamos'?  I remember that during
the Iran-Contra investigation the American secular courts dealt with the
issue of whether destruction of electronic records is the equivalent of
destruction of paper documents with regard to obstruction of justice.  I
know of no Halachic responsa (in the RJJ journal or elsewhere) comparing
the acts of destroying paper versus electronic files.

					Josh Cappell
					Dept. of Physiology and Neuroscience
					New York Univ. School of Medicine

[I beleive that this issue was discussed with a Rov in Lakewood by David
Chechik when the list was first started, although with respect to the
question of teaching Torah to non-Jews. David, please correct me if my
memory is faulty, but the answer was that there is no issue of "shamos"
at all for electronic English display, there is no actuall "shamos" even
with hard copy, and there is no problem of teaching non-Jews since the
target audience is clearly Jewish. One related question I have had is
that even given that the hard copy is not "shamos" that would need to be
buried, it may be enough that it should not be treated in a "shameful"
manner. Should shredding/recycling be considered more akin to burial,
i.e. respectful disposal or to shameful?



End of Volume 14 Issue 77