Volume 14 Number 80
                       Produced: Tue Aug 16 23:12:13 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Fasting with Ease in mail.jewish Vol. 14 #73
         [Sam Saal]
Fastwell Drops
         [Gordon Berkley]
Hacol Tsafui and Free Will
         [Mechy Frankel]
Meru Foundation at AOJS
         [Avrum Goodblat]
Microwave Ovens
         [Jonathan Katz]
         [Marc Meisler]
Muktza question
         [Ben Berliant]
Problems Fasting
         [Joshua Teitelbaum]
Sources on Kadish
         [Anthony Fiorino]
Worldwide Shuls/Restaurants Database
         [Stephen Phillips]


From: Sam Saal <SSAAL@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 94 12:11:00 PDT
Subject: RE: Fasting with Ease in mail.jewish Vol. 14 #73

Lorri Lewis (<lorrin@...> ) points out

>Headaches during fasting are often a caffeine withdrawal symptom.  If
>you can cut out caffeine a couple of weeks before a fast you can avoid
>the headache.

Just as we say "Mishenichnas Adar marbim b'simcha," we should say 
"Mishenichnas Elul, marbim b'caffeine-free."

Sam Saal
Vayiphtach HaShem et Peah HaAtone


From: Gordon Berkley <gordonb@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 01:43:22 -0400
Subject: Fastwell Drops

On Sun, 14 Aug 94,  Manny Lehman <mml@...> wrote:
> The Doctor suggested that I might be suffering from Caffeine
> withdrawal accentuated by the fasting (since for 24 hours before and on
> the day of the treatment all tea, coffee and other possible allergents)
> were out. So I stopped drinking tea and coffee and - NO MORE PROBLEMS on
> treatment days and, more importantly, on Ta'aneisim. From that day
> onwards, other than a feeling of hunger and weakness, I no longer even
> noticed that I was fasting. So certainly in my case - as others who have
> tried it - a coffee abstention regime for a week or two before every
> Ta'anit provided a complete solution.  This is clearly preferable, both
> "ideologically and medically, to "wonder drops" or cafergot and probably
> even more effective.

I have to add my own 0.02NIS here.  I had the pleasure of breaking my
Tisha B'av fast at Manny's house several years ago.  At that time, Manny
told me of the caffeine issue.  Well, at the time it did not really
register on me; fasting was simply not that difficult.  In more recent
years, (fasting) has gotten progressively more difficult (headaches,
general rotten feelings, etc) which has seriously detracted from the
purpose of the fast itself (see also Manny's full posting).

Last year I remembered what Manny had told me, and for 10 days before
the fast, I cut out all caffeine: coffee, tea, coke...

While it hasn't made the fast "easy", it has clearly and undeniably
made it survivable.  I am no longer a basket case by mincha.  Well... :-)

So, THANK YOU MANNY!  (Question: If coffee/caffiene is clearly 'bad',
why don't I then eliminate it completely?  Is it an addiction like
cigarettes are for some?  If it is 'bad' for health, should it be assur?
Food for thought...)

  Gordon D. Berkley    INTERNET: <gordonb@...>   POST: cgb001   ]
  PHONE: +972 (3) 565-8727      FAX: +972 (3) 565-9507            (UTC+3)   ]


From: Mechy Frankel <frankel@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 13:52:00 -0400
Subject: Hacol Tsafui and Free Will

In an ongoing thread on free will and foreknowledge M. Berger (Vol 14
#72) cited R. Akiva's formulation in Maseches Avos (3/15), hacol tasafui
veharishus nesuna. I would like to point out that:

1) assuming R. Akiva is grappling with the
foreknowledge/determinism/free will problem as Mitch (and the Rambam do,
so he is certainly in classy company here) does it can also be said
that, at the plain peshat level, R. Akiva does not seem in fact to be
offering any solution at all. He is merely re-asserting the religious
imperative that one hold, simultaneously, both beliefs without any clue
as to how they might be reconciled. This is indeed the understanding of
R.  Yonah in his perush to to the mishna there.

2) Auerbach has argued convincingly that this maimra in fact has nothing
at all to do with foretelling the future. He points out that the verb
form "tsofeh" is never used by any tannaitic source in such a "seeing
the future" manner. Rather it means seeing - deeply - into the state of
things as they presently are -God is "tsofeh" into the innermost regions
of the heart and nothing may be hidden from Him, as in Mishlei (15/3)
"ainei hashem tsofos raim vetovim" (the "eyes" of God "see" the bad and
good). A similar use of tsofeh in the present tense by R. Akiva himself
is brought in Succah 3 (tsofeh hayisi beraban gamliel..."). The earliest
references to use of tsofeh in a foreknowledge mode are amoraic.

3) The basic problem of man's free will vs divine foreknowledge is
probably as old as the first person who got distracted from some meat
and potatoes blatt learning to stare out the window
daydreaming. (probably when cuffed by the rebbe he explained that he was
really consideringh this important philosophical question, you see...)
It has been treated by about every generation since then and a
remarkable variety of "solutions" have been espoused. A new contribution
by our own generation is mixing in concepts deriving from our deeper
understanding (and entirely new levels of confusion) of the structure of
physical reality.  I tend to squirm a little when I see some of these
formulations, but I also have the feeling that perhaps there is some
pony there.  A sampler of some previous generation answers, including
some politically incorrect offerings, is as follows:

a) Saadia Gaon: foreknowledge does not limit free will, God "merely" has
some other mechanism available to note how thing will turn out. No help
understanding mechanisms here.

b) Ibn Daud: God really doesn't know what going to happen in the sphere
of human choices, he deliberately limits his omniscience with regard to
man (as he limits his omnipotence) .

c) Ralbag: God really doen't know what's going to happen. He focuses
instead on the big ticket items like the immutable natural laws rather
than the changeable individuals. (He probably didn't have a big
readership otherwise i don't see how he would have gotten away with this
with his rep intact, as it seems to be these days).

d) Hasdai Crescas: The world actually is deterministic! and man's
actions are dynamically pre-ordained by his past state, however he
doesn't know this and acts as if he is making real choices.

This is only a sampler and not all of the above sentences, or
explanations, parse well to the critical reader, but then again it
really is a tough problem.  On this we may well agree, in this month of
teshuva and door knocking, that shaaray hatayrutzim oad lo ninalu.

Mechy Frankel                              W: (703 325-1277
<frankel@...>                        H: (301) 593-3949


From: goodblat (Avrum Goodblat)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 00:26:06 -0400
Subject: Meru Foundation at AOJS

Stan Tenan of the Meru Foundation will be presenting some very
amazing insights on hypergeometric patterns in the Tanach.
It is in no way like any of the codes work that exists out there.
I find it fascinating and it is actually some of the indirect inspiration
for the Shamash project. Go and listen and see if you can figure out
what I mean ;-)
They are also presenting in Clifton Park and in Manhattan next week.
And I believe they will be in Sharon MA this week.

Avrum Goodblatt


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 09:52:10 -0400
Subject: Microwave Ovens

Stephen Phillips writes: 
"...it is quite in order to use it for both meat and milk without any need
for kashering..."

IF one held by this ruling, would that also imply that a microwave oven
could be used for both kosher and non-kosher food (though of course
not at the same time)? 

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Marc Meisler <mmeisler@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 18:39:32 -0400
Subject: Milk

[NOTE: I advise checking on this with your LOR, I will try calling the
OU tomorrow, if anyone gets a chance to check on this tomorrow, please
send me email or leave me voicemail at 609-639-2474. Mod]

I heard today that there is a problem with all dairy products, both
chalav yisroel and chalav stam, due to a procedure which is performed on
cows to prevent reproduction.  According to the Star-K as of 4:30 this
afternoon, Rabbi Heinemann says do not use any milk or dairy products
until this can be investigated further.  Has anyone heard any other
details or any confirmation or contradictions?

Marc Meisler                   1001 Spring St., Apt. 423    
<mmeisler@...>           Silver Spring, MD  20910


From: Ben Berliant <C14BZB@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 10:43:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Muktza question

	The original posting (by Fran Glazer? --sorry, I don't save old
mail) on this question raised the of a penknife on a keychain, by
comparing it with car keys on a keychain.  So far, other respondents
have shown why the penknife would be permitted (i.e. non-muktza).  Now
would someone please explain to me why the car keys should be Muktza? 
I assume that we are discussing something that is muktza because
melachto l'issur (it's purpose is for a prohibited activity), but it is
not clear to me that car keys fall into that category (assuming they are 
just normal, non-electronic keys).
	If it is the key to the door, then it is probably not muktza,
since, under the right conditions, it would be permitted for me to open
the car door to get something I had forgotten in the car, or to take
shelter from the rain, etc. (assuming the light wouldn't go on, etc.) 
This is because, even if the car is muktza because of melachto l'issur,
it is permitted to be used for tzorech gufo (for it's inherent use). 
This would be similar to using a hammer (normally muktza) to crack nuts.
	If the key is for the ignition, and only for the ignition, then
you may be correct in assuming that the key is muktza.  But if I am
carrying it only on a larger key ring -- where it just happens to be
attached to the key I really want -- then it may be considered indirect
carrying, which is permitted for this category of muktza.
	At least that's how our LOR explained it last week. 

					BenZion Berliant


From: Joshua Teitelbaum <teitelba@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 08:01:07 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Problems Fasting

I have been following the thread on fasting.  I receive the list in
digest form, I believe, so may have missed some.  In any case, I
approach all fast days with dread.  On 9 BeAv I was totally bed-ridden
from the results of the fast -- migraine, nausea, dizziness.  With Yom
Kippur approaching, I fear the same.  Trying to regulate withdrawal from
caffeine does not work.  I think that if I take a very strong
anti-migraine medicine, **on Yom Kippur**, this problem would be
avoided.  So for me it boils down to the following: Either go to shul in
the morning, and spend the rest of the day at home in bed, or take the
medicine and be able to spend the day davening in shul.  Which is the
proper halakhic thing to do here?  Lshana tovah tikatevu ve tehatemu.

[As always, this is a case of a local Psak Halakha, which should be
addressed to your local Orthodox Rabbi (CYLOR). Here on the list, the
ISSUES that go into making the psak are what can be further
discussed. Mod.]


From: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 11:38:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sources on Kadish

A friend is looking for sources regarding women saying kadish.  She has
apparently been slightly hassled in Israel and the States (especially if no
man is present also saying kadish), and wishes to have some sources that
she can carry with her to show (kind of like a passport :-) ) those who
hassle her.

Whether or not those who give her a hard time would stop upon being shown
an article or t'shuva is to me highly debatable, but I guess she has more
faith in people's good nature than I.

Eitan Fiorino


From: <stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 07:56:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Worldwide Shuls/Restaurants Database

> From: <fx_joe@...> (Yossi Halberstadt)
> In general I am not in favour of these potential 'tools in the hands
> of our enemies'.  As I understand it, virtually anyone with internet
> access will (eventually) be able to locate every shul in the world?
> After recent experiences in London and Buenos Aires, I am not sure
> that this is desirable.  I believe that the Nazis (Y'Sh) used shul
> lists and the like to round up Jews

I think that most of the information is already contained in the
Jewish Chronicle's Jewish Travel Guide and in the Year Books
published in various countries.

Stephen Phillips


End of Volume 14 Issue 80