Volume 14 Number 83
                       Produced: Wed Aug 17 18:04:45 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A Different Question about Cheating
         [ Dr. Jeremy Schiff]
Calculation of Damages when there is no other Paying Customer
         [Michael Broyde]
Dating Quota among Yeshivish Right
         [David Charlap]
Error Condition Re: Re: Sources on Kadish 14/80
         [Neil Parks]
Fasting and (usually) women's work
         [Constance Stillinger]
G-d's Name on the Net
         [Joshua E. Sharf]
G-d, Time, and Man
         [Mitchel Berger]
Hakol tzafui vihareshus nisunah
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
Hypergeometric Patterns
         [Jonathan Katz]
Stealing where one is not hurt
         [Jonathan Katz]
Women Saying Kaddish
         [Aryeh A. Frimer]


From: <schiff@...> ( Dr. Jeremy Schiff)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 94 18:11:42 +0200
Subject: A Different Question about Cheating

I haven't read every word of mail-jewish over the past few weeks, but in
what I have read, there is one aspect of "cheating on tests" that seems
not to have been covered.

Yesterday, in the test for one of the courses I taught this past year,
one student was caught cheating. On the back of a ruler this student had
written, very faintly, a large number of formulae. I have no idea of how
the mashgiach saw this (they obviously have been well trained), and the
first I knew of it was when I saw the mashgiach go over to the student,
remove her answer book and the evidence, and kick her out of the room.

I haven't yet checked out university policy either on the issue of
whether the mashgiach acted according to regulations or not, or on the
question of what will now happen to this student, but I would like to
hear from others, especially those at other universities run according
to Torah principles, as to whether they think the incident was handled
right. On the one hand we have the issur of halbanat panim (publicly
shaming someone), and on the other hand we have the need to prevent
cheating, for which it is essential to show the strength of the
enforcers ("vechol ha'am yishme'u veyira'u").

Of course, for those of you who don't think Jews should go to college,
this story will be good ammunition. But this subject I will write about
under another heading.



From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 11:14:46 -0400
Subject: Calculation of Damages when there is no other Paying Customer

One reader question what is the fair measure of damages if there is no
other paying customer.  Is it the cost of the cleannup (small amount) or
the fair market rent of the room.  If one examines the commentators on
this area of halacha, one sees two different measures of damage.  One
group asserts that the proper measure is the fair market rent, and that
is the pashut explanation of the shulchan aruch (which is probably
derived from a dispute in the mordechai).  Others rule that he pays
the amount he and the landlord  would have agreed on had they freely
negotiatied the rent.  This means that if the posted rate is $20, but
when there are empty rooms, the landlord will rent out for less, the
person pays less.  I am glad to provide detailed sources on this dispute.
There are infact other opinions voiced, also.
Michael Broyde.


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 12:11:09 -0400
Subject: Dating Quota among Yeshivish Right

Sam Juni <JUNI@...>

[story about a girl who announced an engagement after only four dates
>If a youngster makes an impetuous decision, why is she programmed to
>be proud of it? And, who is doing the programming? And, WHY are they 
>doing this programming?

First of all, you didn't mention if this is typical or not.  Some
people are just like that, even without "programming".

I doubt there's anyone telling women to get married to people they
don't know.  But there is a concept (is this a mitzva?) of being
"shomer negia" - of not touching a member of the opposite sex unless
you're married to that person.  In general, mixed-gender social events
are discouraged except as a prelude to marriage.

In short, I don't think anyone's telling women to get married to total
strangers, but dating "just for the fun of it" is discouraged, and in
many communities, women are strongle encouraged to get married at an
early age.  The two together may lead to the "programming" you speak of.

>I assume there is a litany of Da'as Torah's about this (defined as
>the ruminations of Roshei Yeshiva who are experts in Talmudic Law),
>and I'd be most curious about the reasoning for this atrocity.

An attrocity?  An attrocity is when millions of people get
slaughtered.  An attrocity is when terrorists drive people from their
homes.  An attrocity is not a girl's engagement failing to meet your

I think you're looking for malice where there is none.


From: Neil Parks <neil.parks@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 14:11:25 -0400
Subject: Error Condition Re: Re: Sources on Kadish 14/80

 >>: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
 >>A friend is looking for sources regarding women saying kadish.  She
 >>has apparently been slightly hassled in Israel and the States
 >>(especially if no man is present also saying kadish), and wishes to
 >>have some sources that she can carry with her to show (kind of like a
 >>passport :-) ) those who hassle her.

Rabbi Daniel Schur is rabbi of the Heights Jewish Center in
Cleveland, and is chairman of the local Orthodox Rabbinical
Council.  When he was asked the specific question, "May a woman
say kaddish?", his reply was:  "A woman should say kaddish, but
she must be careful not to say it louder than the men."

NEIL PARKS   <neil.parks@...>


From: Constance Stillinger <cas@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 14:48:44 -0400
Subject: Fasting and (usually) women's work

<sbechhof@...> (Shoshanah Bechhofer)> wrote:

> When I have been pregnant during fasts, this problem [dehydration]
> has been even more severe especially since dehydration can lead to
> premature labor.  I have always been told by our posek that it is
> preferable for me to keep the fast and stay in bed the entire Yom
> Kippur than to make it to shul and risk having to break the fast
> early. ...

I had been told by my LOR *not* to fast during pregnancy, precisely
because dehydration, hypoglycemia, and all the rest of it are threats to
the health and life of the fetus.

Now let's move on to childcare issues during Yom Kippur.  Some people
get uncontrollable migraines that last several days, a problem that is
evidently more common among women, who are usually in charge of most of
the child care.  If you have one or more small children, it is *not
possible* as the principal caretaker to take it easy on Yom Kippur, even
if you stay home from shul.  So even if the fast doesn't provoke an
attack in itself, the stress of childcare without food or water can send
you over the threshold.  If you get a multi-day migraine, you're
bedridden for those days---who takes care of the kids?

So are you supposed to hire a Gentile babysitter for the days you expect
to be incapacitated?  Suppose you can't afford it?  Is your husband
supposed to stay home from shul and take care of the baby and toddlers?

Yes, consult your LOR.  But what might be worth discussing here is how
the childcare question interacts with the mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur.




From: <jsharf@...> (Joshua E. Sharf)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 03:06:25 -0700
Subject: G-d's Name on the Net

	In v14n79, David Charlap gives a numbers of reasons why G-d's name
on the Internet should not pose a halachic problem.  I would like to
add one further clarification.  When G-d's name appears on a computer
screen, that screen is refreshed many times a second, is clearly not
permanent.  So, it's not really writing, in the halachic sense, to begin
	I suspect that most sefarim are typeset by computer.  In fact,
one reference program now on the market, while displaying the actual
text on the screen, won't let you print a page with G-d's name without
first promising to treat the printout with respect!

-- Joshua Sharf


From: Mitchel Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 08:33:48 -0400
Subject: G-d, Time, and Man

Sam Juni <JUNI@...> restates my position as:
> Since G-d is not bound by time, we can assert that G-d knows what you
> (will) do only because you (did) do it in the future. Hence, you have a
> perfect choice of how to act, but G-d will "see" your actions and know
> about them (in "your") past.

Almost correct, but still too anthropomorphic. G-d doesn't know about my
actions in my past, since that phraseology assumes that He is in time,
and experiences the relationship between my past and my future.

G-d is as outside of time as I am outside of a history book's time-line.
If I look at a timeline I can see in a glance the future and past of the
history it describes. Does that mean that I know of its future while in
its past?

Just as I can touch any part of the timeline at will, and see any part
at will, so can Hashem affect or see any part of the real history. In
both cases it is because the observer is outside of the time being

Causality loops, where decisions I will make affect things currently
happening to me mitigates free will. In order to preserve free will, I
want to stress that G-d is removed from the notions of "current" and
"future" altogether.

My view of the world is much like Rob Braun's. G-d makes us do things
not to see what we will do, but to make us go through the exercise of
deciding and living with the consequences. This is in line with the
Gemara's words, "This world is but the feuyer to the palace." We're here
to get ourselves ready for the next world.


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 11:39:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Hakol tzafui vihareshus nisunah

> From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
> I think there is a different question here than the one being dealt
> with strictly by the time element: not whether G-d knows in advance
> that you're going to do something, but whether G-d would interfere with
> your choice.  It doesn't matter if G-d knows what's going to happen if
> G-d doesn't take steps to affect that choice based on prior knowledge.

If G-d is omniscient, and knows what you are going to do, how can you
do otherwise?  If so, what free choice do you have?  There is an
interesting comment by the Rambam (strongly disputed by the Ra'avad)
to the effect that somehow G-d gives up his foreknowledge in certain
situations.  I remember it being in the Mishneh Torah, the
location currently escapes me.

For me, this discussion is fun.  However, IMHO, due to the significant
changes in "accepted" outlook and philosophical basis over the last
couple of millenium, and changes in what is considered "rigorous" and
"correct," citing classical sources without analyzing the principles
which they presume will ultimately be frustrating and unsatisfying.

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 09:36:41 EDT
Subject: Hypergeometric Patterns

Avrum Goodblat writes:
"Stan Tenan of the Meru Foundation will be presenting some very
amazing insights on hypergeometric patterns in the Tanach."

Could you please explain or give a little more background as to what 
exactly this is?? Thanks

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 94 00:21:57 EDT
Subject: Stealing where one is not hurt

I have been following with some interest the discussion of the law regarding
one who "steals" something from someone else, but the one who is stolen
*from* does not suffer any damages (i.e. sneaking into a baseball game).

Michael Broyde writes:
"The classical example of this found in the rishonim is when I sleep
in your hotel room without paying rent..." [the implication is that this is
NOT allowed, and one must pay damages]

Am I missing something here? If there ARE no damages, what damages are
there which must be payed back? And if, in fact, there REALLY were some
sort of damages, then it's not really similar to the question of the baseball
game, is it?

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: <frimer@...> (Aryeh A. Frimer)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 09:16:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Women Saying Kaddish

	Rav Henkin zatsal published a teshuvah permitting women to say
Kaddish from the ezrat Nashim in HaPardes in the 1950's. The Teshuvah is
reprinted in the volume Published by his grandson, Rav Yehudah Herzl
Henkin Shlitah, in which he collected his Grandfather's writings. He
also has a long discussion of the Teshuvah in Resp. Bnai Vanim (though,
I'm not sure whether it is volume 1 or 2). I apologize for the lack of
page and verse citations, but I'll be back in Israel by Sept. 1st and
can be contacted thereafter at f66235%<barilan.bitnet@...>
	Kol Tuv


End of Volume 14 Issue 83