Volume 14 Number 86
                       Produced: Thu Aug 18 12:59:11 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A Different Question about Cheating
         [Aryeh Blaut]
         [Aharon Fischman]
Dating Ethics
         [Naomy Graetz ]
Dating Quota among Yeshivish Right
         [Michael Chaim Katzenelson]
Dating Quotas
         [Yossi Halberstadt]
Impetuousness of Orthodox Jews?
         [Norman Tuttle]
Stealing where no one is hurt - a related question
         [Sam Gamoran]


From: Aryeh Blaut <ny000592@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 03:17:20 -0400
Subject: Re: A Different Question about Cheating

Dr. Schiff wrote:

>Yesterday, in the test for one of the courses I taught this past year,
>one student was caught cheating. On the back of a ruler this student had
>written, very faintly, a large number of formulae. I have no idea of how
>the mashgiach saw this (they obviously have been well trained), and the
>first I knew of it was when I saw the mashgiach go over to the student,
>remove her answer book and the evidence, and kick her out of the room.
>I haven't yet checked out university policy either on the issue of
>whether the mashgiach acted according to regulations or not, or on the
>question of what will now happen to this student, but I would like to
>hear from others, especially those at other universities run according
>to Torah principles, as to whether they think the incident was handled
>right. On the one hand we have the issur of halbanat panim (publicly
>shaming someone), and on the other hand we have the need to prevent
>cheating, for which it is essential to show the strength of the
>enforcers ("vechol ha'am yishme'u veyira'u").

One can prevent cheating without the shaming.  Allow the student to 
finish the test and as s/he is turning it in, to privatly speak to her 
(ask her for her ruler, etc.).

I have caught/suspected several students of cheating over my years in a 
classroom.  I have accidently "lost" the tests and asked the student to 
retake it, thus giving a non-cheating version of the test.

Aryeh Blaut


From: <afischma@...> (Aharon Fischman)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 10:05:47 -0400
Subject: Dating

I can understand Dr. Juni's discussion of Dating in the Yeshivish
Right. To a similar end, my sister had two friends who got engaged after
four dates in the same two week span. Honestly, I agree with Dr. Juni's
point that something is amiss. While in life there are people who 'know'
whom there bashert is in a short period of time, it must be exception,
not the norm. Given the litany of things to look for in 'Eishet Chayil',
and assuming that Women have as much right to be choosy as men, it is
nearly impossible to always be sure in four dates. However I do not
attribute this 'Joy' of making such a quick decision to brain washing,
but rather to social pressure. At Yeshiva University, where I graduated
a year ago, there was an underlying, but unrealistic pressure on some in
the student body to get married. This pressure may be even heavier in
the 'Yeshivish' world where it might seem possible that getting married
has more importance in life's goals than it a would in more 'centrist'
society.  Extra thought may not be a bad idea in the long run.

Aharon Fischman


From: Naomy Graetz  <graetz@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 01:16:07 -0400
Subject: Dating Ethics

Re: Shaul's and Sam Juni's exchange:

 the total absence of Jewish
> marriage manuals before R. Eliyahu Kitov's pioneering "Ish U-Veito" ("A
> Man and His House") of about 30 years ago seems to testify to the lack
> of need for such books and to general marital happiness among
> traditional Jews.

Perhaps it means the opposite:  it took a long time to recognize that 
there was a need for such books.  Even in the secular world, Freud 
refused to see that there was incest between father and daughter and only 
recently has it become a commonplace that such things do exist (even in 
the haredi world).

>      How successful was this practice? This is a good question, since
> Yemenite Jews, for example, went according to the Talmudic law that a
> man could divorce his wife at will and did not accept Rabbeinu Gershom's
> ban either on this or on taking more than one wife. R. Qafeh's
> observation on this is noteworthy. He reports that in San`a, where women
> were totally secluded from the men, divorces were quite rare. He also
> gives the typical age of marriage as 16 to 19 for men and 11 to 15 for
> women. In the smaller villages, however, where men and women worked
> together in the fields, marriages were less stable.

Is the writer of this communication aware of how much wife-beating is 
tolerated among Yemenite Jews (and considered natural by the women-- "we 
must have done something to deserve this".

>       It is true that today, family life in even the most conservative
> Jewish circles is more strained than it was even 20 years ago. In the
> lack of any concrete data, I would tend to attribute this to the ever
> quickening pace of life, the greater material demands being placed on
> the family, the greater mobility of children and their independence from
> their parents and from each other, and the growing acceptance of the
> concept of the woman working outside the home and mingling freely with
> the men.

If you look at the responsa literature starting from geonic times and 
continuing until today, you will see that there were always problems in 
the Jewish family.  The reason is not because we are worse; but because 
we are human beings.  However, because of the myth that we were so much 
better, women often had to suffer and stay in marriages where they were 
physically and mentally abused.  In his famous responsa R. Perez b. 
Elijah of Corbeil addressed the issue of rabbis who preferred to ignore 
the phenomenon going on around him:  He wrote, "The cry of the daughters 
of our people has been heard concerning the sons of Israel who raise 
their hands to strike their wives....Nevertheless we have heard of cases 
where Jewish women complained regarding their treatement before the 
communities and noc action was taken on their behalf.  We have therefore 
decreed that any Jew may be complelled...not to beat his wife in anger or 
cruelty....for that is against Jewish practice."

One can of course, read this two ways:  there is no wife-beating among 
Jews because it is against Jewish practice and if the rabbis took no 
action, then there was no problem.  Or one can read this as a crie de 
coeur against a practice which was widespread in medieval times (but not 
necessarily more so than among non-Jews.)

I am new to this list:  has anyone posted communications re: 
wife-beating?  If so, please bring it to my attention.

Naomi Graetz (<graetz@...>)


From: nelson%<bnlmcn.dnet@...> (Michael Chaim Katzenelson)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 22:20:07 -0400
Subject: Dating Quota among Yeshivish Right

Dr Juni in V. 14, N. 78.  expresses great concern at the notion that
a couple would date four times and then confidently marry, with every 
expectation that they are bersherten.  Dr. Juni goes so far as to refer
to this as programming and an atrocity.  Yet, most of us know that this
style of courtship is not only typical in the frum world, but that it
is also fantastically successful.

Consider the following:

  The shiduch that results in marriage is probably by no means the
  first shiduch for either of our young couple.  In those previous
  shiduchim they have learned quite a lot about themselves and what
  they're looking for.

  In many cases the families of the bersherten-potentia know each other.
  So they each know something about the context and background in which
  they're potential partner was raised.

  The real work in a marriage begins after the hupah.  No amount of
  going to the museum or Jerusalem-II will substitute.

There is a Midrash that the stones of the Alter shed tears when a man
divorces his first wife.  Evidently Torah regards that first marriage
as something quite special.  It doesn't stipulate how many times they
met before marrying or even how long they managed to stay married.
In all cases, the marriage is something quite special in Torah.

Mazel Tov for Dr. Juni's young friend.

Michael Chaim Katzenelson


From: <fx_joe@...> (Yossi Halberstadt)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 09:34:59 GMT
Subject: Dating Quotas

With respect to the recent discussion about "dating quotas".

I do generally agree that the so called 'yeshivish right' dating system
has its advantages. However, over the last perhaps only two or three
years there have been a dramatically increased number of divorces within
this community, at least relating to the community in the UK.

To this end I would like to make several comments:

1) I don't think that we should be setting our standards by the outside
   world, where the whole concept of marriage and marital commitment
   have all but disappeared. Each broken Jewish marriage is a tragedy,
   as the Talmud in Gittin after discussing divorce for 90 pages
   concludes: "For one who divorces the wife of his youth, even the
   Altar sheds tears"

2) I don't think that comparing the situation nowadays to the pre-war
   East European community is correct. We have totally different
   expectations from a marriage - a husband and wife are expected to
   love each other, be companions for each other and spend a lot of a
   time together. I don't believe that this was always the case.

3) There is a dramatic increase in 'inter-continantal' marriages. In
   these cases it is much more difficult to find out any useful
   information about the other party. (An interesting aside: people
   tend, unfortunately, to speak Loshon Hora, except in one of the few
   cases where it is permitted, namely when somebody is enquiring about
   a prospective partner, where the only responses you get are "Lovely
   girl, so clever, fine family...."!).  Furthermore, the cultural
   differences between, say UK and USA are large enough to put
   considerable extra strain on a marriage. Also at least one partner
   will be far from parents, who would ofen provide support when things
   are difficult.

4) Here in England, people are getting married much younger than was the
   case even five years ago. It has become so much the trend, that
   people who are quite possibly not emotianally ready for marriage feel
   pressurised into finding a spouse. (Here a boy of 25 or a girl of 23
   who are unmarried are near to despair!)

5) Quick shidducim are becoming more and more common, with parties
   meeting for a week, getting engaged and then not seeing each other
   much at all till the Chuppah (by when they are once again near

To conclude, there is far, far too much tragic divorce here and this is
a concern which I feel must be addressed in a very serious way,


Yossi Halberstadt


From: <ntuttle@...> (Norman Tuttle)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 94 08:05:42 -0400
Subject: Impetuousness of Orthodox Jews?

Sam Juni's comment on the dating practices of some Orthodox Jews is not
in order.  I'm single, and I do not know any such impetuousness.  In
fact, a girl will not go out for a second date if she sees even the
smallest incompatibility.  Rebetzin Jungreis of Hineni in Manhattan says
that one should know whether one should continue with a person by
approximately the fourth date.  As the philosophy of Orthodox is not to
date for pleasure purposes (primarily, at least), but for marriage, it
seems that it would therefore be in order to advertise this commitment
through engagement.  Marriage is a serious Mitzvah, and a person who
puts it off (unless there are good reasons, such as engaging in Mitzvot
like Talmud Torah) is considered to be in violation of a positive
commandment (obviously, if you have not met your Zivug yet, that Mitzvah
is not yet applicable).

As a side note, I was at the Homowak July 4th weekend, and I witnessed
the development of a young couple, ages 20 and 24, who met that Shabbat
and were engaged within a week!  If two people love each other, and
=-KNOW- that they are a Zivug, why should they not get married?  I envy
people who meet this fast, knowing how hard it is for met to find a
single date with an appropriate person.


From: gamoran%<milcse@...> (Sam Gamoran)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 01:16:05 -0400
Subject: Stealing where no one is hurt - a related question

The recent m-j thread on this subject has brought to mind a related

I belong to a carpool of 5 so that we each drive approx. once a week and
it all more-or-less evens out.  Many of my neighbors in our yishuv have
similar arrangements.  Many drive, some pay in lieu of driving.

One of our neighbors, "Reuven", is a "professional ride shnorrer".  He
never drives nor does he have a paying arrangement.  He looks for free
rides every day.  Not all carpools are as full as ours, and indeed we
often have an empty seat because of business trips, vacations, etc. so
Reuven often gets a ride when he calls us.  There is always the bus if
he strikes out.

This is not stealing: Reuven only gets a ride when a seat is available,
with the consent of the driver, at the departure time agreed to by the
carpool.  The only costs are the additional weight in the car and the
discomfort to back seat passengers of having to squeeze three where it
otherwise might have only been two.

Clearly this works as long as there is only one Reuven.  If many of us
adopted his strategy there would be no rides at all!  Is one required to
agree to take Reuven?  Should we demand payment?

Where do we draw the line?  Most of us have found a need for a
occasional "tramp".  Does halacha have a boundary between the
"occasional" ride and becoming a regular?  Note that Reuven habitually
shnorrs but only occasionally from us.

Sam Gamoran


End of Volume 14 Issue 86