Volume 14 Number 94
                       Produced: Tue Aug 23  7:31:48 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Glatt Revisited
         [Mike Grynberg]
Habitual Neheneh's
         [Danny Skaist]
         [Steven Edell]
Kashrut of microwave ovens
         [Jonathan Katz]
Kosher Database/Directories and Lists in general
         [Cheryl Hall]
Microwave ovens
         [David Charlap]
         [Barry Freundel]
Politics, Halacha & the Land of Israel
         [Yisrael Medad]
Prayers for the Sick on Shabbat (2)
         [Mitchel Berger, Allen Elias]


From: <spike@...> (Mike Grynberg)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 02:57:59 -0400
Subject: Glatt Revisited

I was thinking about glatt the other day, and I have a question. I am
not sure if it has been addressed before, and if it has, please refer me
to where I can access it.

The question is as follows. I understood glatt to refer to the outcome
of the bodek (checker) examination of the lungs with his hands. If all
is smooth, glatt, then the meat is glatt, otherwise if there is a lesion
on the lung it should be removed, and then the lung examined by certain
tests to determine if it is kosher or not.

Here is my problem. Suppose the lesion is removed, and the lung examined
by a competent rav, and determined to be kosher. What makes glatt any
more kosher than regular meat. There is no suspicion that the meat the
rav pronounced kosher is not really kosher. Before the rav gave a psak,
halachic ruling, there was a possibility the animal would be declared
unkosher, but afterwards, what is there to worry about.

Even though the possibility exists that the rav made a mistake, we can
be rely on his ruling, since we do not assume he made a mistake, and
even if he did the animal is still kosher. So how is glatt a chumra. I
am just as sure about glatt meat being kosher as I am about regular
kosher meat being kosher, both on the word of someone who is
knowledgable in his field, the bodek, and the person who pronounces the
animal kosher.

The only explanation that occurred to me it that it is not certain that
regular kosher is really kosher, and therefore only glatt is kosher. But
that is absurd, otherwise what is all the discussion in yoreah deah
about how to check the lung and remove the lesion, and then retest it,
obviously meet that passes this criteria is kosher, but to my
understanding no better, than glatt.

Seeing as I have taken on the minhag of my wife's family and eat only
glatt I am longing for a nice steak here israel. And I have checked a
few restaurants, but very few are glatt. My question is that the
certification declares that the meat was brought from chutz la'aretz,
out of the country.  Is this the same as basar kafu, meat that was not
kashered within 72 hours but frozen, and kashered at a later time? or is
it a seperate category, and there is yet hope for me to find a nice

sorry for the rambling,


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 03:16:23 -0400
Subject: Habitual Neheneh's

>Sam Gamoran
>Clearly this works as long as there is only one Reuven.  If many of us
>adopted his strategy there would be no rides at all!  Is one required to
>agree to take Reuven?  Should we demand payment?

Stop for gas on the way in, and let Reuven pay his share.

The halacha "ze nehane v'ze lo haser" [this one gains but the other one
does not lose], does NOT APPLY in the case where the one who "does not
lose" actually takes out money to pay.

The "owner" would have to pay anyway. There is no "loss" or extra
expense due to the second person, but, according to hallacha, he may be
forced to pay his share.



From: Steven Edell <edell@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 17:40:06 -0400
Subject: Incest

On Fri, 19 Aug 1994, Shalom Carmy wrote:

> Before the PC Police get me: I don't mean to deny that incest occurs.
> Only that everything I read implies that it's somewhat exaggerated and,
> what signifies more, that the reality is being massaged for ideological
> reasons that we ought to put us on guard.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but one of the precise problems about incest 
is that (until recently,at least) it HASN'T been talked about.  There are 
a myriad of emotions involved:  guilt, shame, fear (for the parents as 
well), and love.  Many people just stifle the feelings (sublimate them), 
only for them to surface many years later.

In Israel, incest is slowly recognized as a problem - in the Haridi as 
well as secular camp - but unfortunately, legislation moves at a snails 

-Steven Edell, MSW


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 03:51:38 -0400
Subject: Kashrut of microwave ovens

Many people have responded to my question about the rules of kashrut for
microwave ovens. However, no one has yet addressed the crux of my question.
I want to know the REASONING behind these laws of kashrut.
Let me explain:
I understand that one is not allowed to eat (i.e.) non-kosher meat.
I understand that one must use kosher pots because otherwise particles of
non-kosher food remain in the pots and get transferred to the (kosher) food
that one is cooking.
I sort of understand that one must use a kosher stove, because the pot itslef
(and, by extension, the food inside) is touching a surface (the burner) 
which has itself come into contact with non-kosher food.
However, for the case of an oven, and even more so in the case of a
I do not understand the reasoning at all. Are we worried about non-kosher
particles "floating in the air" inside the oven (or microwave), and then
being transferred to the food? Are we worried about (perhaps) ma'arit eyin
(i.e., that one might think we are cooking non-kosher food since we are
using a non-kosher oven)? Please explain.

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 19:06:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Kosher Database/Directories and Lists in general

I am always upset by suggestions that we Jews should keep a low profile
to protect ourselves.  Not giving out names and phone numbers, becoming
a secret society. It took me 5 years to convince a congregation with
which I was formerly associated, to produce and distribute to the
membership a photo membership listing. People were so afraid all the
Jews would be on a list.  The goyim surely didn't care, and the
community didn't know who belonged.  I've since left the congregation,
but the directory is a big hit and people are finally getting to know
one another.

In the US the problem isn't physical assault, but lack of community
disconnectedness.  The Net can provide outlets for this such as a
comprehensive database. Things like this exist in book format already,
but that is never as current as an online database. For restuarants and
groceries the KOSHER CLUB is great. They have a guide book, monthly
updates, an 800 number and will even provide meals in trieflands.

If someone wants to blow-up a synagogue, JCC, kosher restaurant etc all
they have to do is call INFORMATION.  We can't be the "light unto the
nations" if we stay under the bushel basket.

Cheryl Hall
Long Beach CA USA


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:45:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Microwave ovens

<stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips) writes:
>2. Does hot steam [Zi'oh] coming into contact with a cold surface
>(ie. the metal walls of the microwave oven) render the surface meaty or
>milky (as the case may be), and does it make a difference as to which
>surface it is (ie. the top, bottom or sides)?

More to the point, normal ovens experience the same thing.  Why should
it be possible to switch the usage of a normal oven (hot steam hitting
hot walls) and not a microwave (hot steam hitting cold walls.)?

>5. Regarding the point that "the place where the food rests gets very
>hot", do not most microwave ovens have a removable dish that revolves on
>a turntable and one could therefore have one each for meat and dairy
>foods. The advice I received from the Rov I consulted (see my previous
>posting) was that the dish did not need to be changed.  Further, are not
>many of the dishes made of glass which is not susceptable to becoming
>meaty or milky?

For that matter, what does the status of the rack/glass matter if food
isn't placed directly on them?  If the walls of the oven don't ruin
the food,(the article quoted said that you can cook dairy and meat in
the same oven, at different times,as long as you're not cooking a
container of liquid.) why should the rack be different from the walls?

I suspect that both the rack and the walls have an affect, but a
lenience was given here, since it is easy to have two sets of racks,
but very difficult (and expensive) to have two ovens.

In the case of the microwave, it is fairly easy to have two of them,
so the same reasoning that leads to "get separate racks" leads to "get
separate ovens" in the case of the microwave.

>6. Are we talking about different types of microwave oven?

We may be.

Years ago, I worked in a fast-food restaurant.  The microwave ovens
used there bear little resemblance to the ones you might have in your
home.  They run at huch higher power (1500 watts or more), and have no
glass surfaces.  The cooking chamber is steel with a ceramic base, and
it is completely closed.  I won't say "sealed", because steam does
escape, but there is no obvious ventillation.

I would be surprised if one could kasher such a device without
replacing the ceramic and blowtorching the steel parts.


From: <Dialectic@...> (Barry Freundel)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 02:20:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Microwaves

Tests were run at YU a few years ago under I believe Rabbi Willig's
behest. Solid food seemed to create no problem but liquids give off hot
steam that is absorbed in the ceiling and rules of use and kashering
should be based on that.


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 02:42:03 -0400
Subject: Politics, Halacha & the Land of Israel

Further to this discussion, please note that the Beit Yosef in his
commentary on the Shulchan Aruch {Tur Orach Chayim, Para. 561 [tav-
kuf-samech-alef], writes on the Talmudic dictum "he who sees the cities of
Judea in their ruin must rent" (Moed Katan 26A) that:
     "it appears that as long as they are ruled by non-Jews,
     even if they contain a Jewish community, 'in their ruin'
     they are called, and that is their main element".

And there the Bach comments:
     "everywhere that the nations rule, [that is in Eretz-Yisrael]
     'in their ruin' are they called".

It would seem that the interaction between Halacha and politics (as
defined as 'affairs of state' rather than party intrigues) is
unavoidable and belongs properly among the discussion themes of Mail-
Jewish, despite Eli Turkels's protestations.

For example, do we rent when seeing Jericho under the PLO flag (whether
or not you ar pro-Oslo or against)?  Or, the topic that started this
discussion, do Rabbis have an obligation to speak out and call for
demonstrations both pro or con the current peace policy to yield up
portions of the Land of Israel, based on either Pikuach Nefesh [danger
of loss of life], Lo Techanem [not allowing non-Jews possession], etc.
and et al?

Yisrael Medad


From: Mitchel Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 07:44:07 -0400
Subject: Prayers for the Sick on Shabbat

I often wondered about something.
 We don't say the normal Shemona Esrei on Shabbos because it is improper
to make requests in Shabbos tephillah. So then why are "mi shebeirach"s
permitted, in the case where the illness is not life threatening? Or
what about the mi shebeirach for the person called up to the Torah (and
his family and friends)?

From: Allen Elias <100274.346@...>
Date: 22 Aug 94 14:34:54 EDT
Subject: Prayers for the Sick on Shabbat

"Maslow, David" <MASLOWD@...> writes:

>There appears to be a great proliferation in the number of prayers for the
>sick (misheberachs l'cholim) at the time of the Torah reading.  Is this
>because (a) more people are getting sick, (b) there is a greater reliance on
>prayer for cures, or (c) it has become fashionable to make such a prayer for
>anyone at all infirm?

Hopefully (b) is the answer. (Assuming medical care is also applied).

>Further, what are the halachic implications of this in terms of (a) making
>individual prayers of request on Shabbat in non-emergency or non-acute
>situations, and (b) delaying the service (tirchei d'tziburah)?  I have seen
>these last more than 15 minutes in a large congregation.

Why should people's health be considered tirchei d'tziburah?
Is 15 minues too much to give for your sick neighbors?
I think if the 15 minutes is too much for most people they should
ask the chazen to hurry up those portions of the davening which are
drawn out and also ask the Rabbi to shorten his sermon.
Surely G-d will compromise His Honor for the benefit of the ill.


End of Volume 14 Issue 94