Volume 15 Number 5
                       Produced: Thu Aug 25 20:09:39 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cows, Glatt Meat, and Treifos
         [Yaakov Menken]
Dating and Marriage in mail.jewish Vol. 14 #95
         [Sam Saal]
Glatt and Eggs
         [Mike Grynberg]
Internet facilities in MINSK
         [Mark Katz]
Mida Hachodesh
         [Aryeh Blaut]
Statistics, Mathematics, and God
         [Daniel Levy Est.MLC]
YU Environment
         [Francine S. Glazer]


From: Yaakov Menken <ny000548@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 23:42:17 -0400
Subject: Cows, Glatt Meat, and Treifos

In V14 #98, Connie Stillinger asked if an animal didn't have to be dead 
in order to be terefah.

The answer is, no.  A treifah cow can indeed be alive, but damaged in 
such a way that the Halacha presumes it will not survive for 12 months,
as Avi responded.  On the other hand, an animal can be properly shechted
and then turn out to be a treifah - damaged in such a way that it _would_
not have survived, and thus be forbidden to eat despite proper slaughter.

When an animal is not slaughtered properly - including one that dies of
those same type of wounds - it is called a neveilah.  Thus when people
say that those who don't eat Kosher are eating 'treif' it's just a 
manner of speaking - most of the cows were probably healthy, but weren't

All the stories I've heard second the idea that a G-d fearing person would
be well-advised to only purchase "Glatt" - because while not all that's 
labelled Glatt actually is, the same is true for the label "Kosher."  Glatt 
is at least more likely to be permissible, b'dieved (after the fact), when 
all possible leniencies are mixed in... ;-)

In Israel, Glatt Meat is to the best of my knowledge almost exclusively 
_not_ Basar Kafu - frozen meat, meaning frozen before being salted.  
This meat can be obtained at Ten Li Chow, Yossi Peking, and even Off the
Square - which _does_ have a pretty decent (and expensive) steak on the 

I'm going to put in a second request to people:  PLEASE WRITE LETTERS to
U.S. News and World Report, <71154.1006@...>, and protest their
libelous article against Dor Yeshorim!  I've spoken to a friend of mine 
who's a lawyer:  Dor Yeshorim has a case.  I've spoken with Rabbi Ekstein,
the director:  he's producing a letter of his own, and is speaking with
lawyers as well.  Can we force U.S. News to retract their slander _before_
this becomes a lawsuit?

I am not part of Dor Yeshorim, any more than any other person with a Dor 
Yeshorim code...

Yaakov Menken


From: Sam Saal <SSAAL@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 09:08:00 PDT
Subject: Dating and Marriage in mail.jewish Vol. 14 #95

Shaul Wallach makes some cogent comments and a valiant defense of the status 
quo. I'd like to touch on only a few of his comments.

> ...
>     Some of the most popular Jewish books on ethics, such as Menorat
>Ha-Ma'or, Reshit Hokhma, Shevet Musar and Pele Yo`ez, have chapters or
>sections that deal with a man and his wife.

>     However, it does not follow that the large number of detailed
>Jewish marriage manuals in our generation fills a need that always
>existed in the past. Former generations were just as human as we are,
>but they had different standards and priorities in life. Furthermore,

Your list of sources is a demonstration (proof?) that the need always 

>they were able to suffer more and tolerate a greater degree of
>imperfection in their lives. In other words, people were content with a
>lesser amount of perfection in their marriages, and couples were better
>able to adjust to each other.

>      It is my impression that the affluence of the postwar generation
>is the single most important factor that has led to the breakdown of the
>family. Thus it was found, for example, that college students of the

I like Shaul's analysis and would like to add one more possibility. I wonder 
if the average Jew has access to these sources. Is Jewish literacy high 
 enough to read, understand, and appreciate them or do we need Rabbis and 
other learned folk to distill, organize, and present these disparate sources 
to today's audience? Finding all these sources and the relevant sections 
within them and understanding the context of the rest of the book takes a 
significant effort. Is that much time available when you're also trying to 
spend time working on mending a relationship? Is that much time available if 
you'd also like to be learning other things?

> ...
>     It would be folly to deny that wife-beating has happened among
>Jews. In Israel today, for example, there are centers for beaten women,
>and it is estimated that about one sixth of all Jewish women are beaten
>by their husbands (The proportion among Palestinians was reported to be
>much higher).

I'm a little nervous about this marginally relevant comment about the 
Palestinians cropping up in this post. I think we should be worrying about 
ourselves here. Quite frankly, there's not all that much I want to compare 
in Judaism with the Palestinians.

>      However, I am not aware that Yemenite Jewish women believe that
>they "deserve" it, although a study in Israel showed recently that this
>belief persists among Palestinian women.

>      Moreover, R. Qafeh comments on it in his book, and said roughly
>that it was unheard of among Yemenite Jews, and if it did happen, then
>it was condemned. From this language it seems that it did occasionally
>happen. But he adds in this context that the woman was regarded as
>defenseless, and for her husband to turn into her enemy was most

I am also a little uncomfortable with this paragraph. It sounds too much 
like the old joke: "I wasn't there, I didn't do it, and you can't prove it."

>>2) I don't think that comparing the situation nowadays to the pre-war
>>   East European community is correct. We have totally different
>>   expectations from a marriage - a husband and wife are expected to
>>   love each other, be companions for each other and spend a lot of a
>>   time together. I don't believe that this was always the case.

>     Indeed, this is precisely the point I was trying to make - that our
>attitudes today towards marriage are different from those of our
>ancestors, and that this is the reason for the troubles we are having.

And a good reason to have people distill disparate sources and re-present 
them for today's audience.

Sam Saal


From: <spike@...> (Mike Grynberg)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 11:35:10 +0200
Subject: Glatt and Eggs

i recently asked a question about glatt, and how it is considered a
chumra.  since then i have heard something i was hoping someone who
knows better than me could repond to.

Given our industrial society, and it's accompanying pollution, i
recently heard that all animals, have some sort of lesion, on the lungs,
therefore making glatt a big exception, and not really having the
meaning it once did, when used in a hashgacha. for example, one can
purchase glatt chicken, but as far as i know, which admittedly is
limited, there is no need to even check a chicken's lungs. and i have
certainly never heard anyone say they only eat glatt chicken.

i have another unrelated kashrut question. this one deals with eggs and
blood spots. Does someone like Entemnans (sp?) check all their eggs
before the make that wonderful marshmallow iced devils food cake? or do
they just buy powdered eggs by the ton? My guess would be that they have
not hired people to check eggs all day long. So how do we know that one
of these eggs did not have a blood spot. or do we say that it is
insignificant given the quantities we are discussing. (batel
bashishim). i always understood that this concept was applicable if we
made a mistake, not if we did something intentionally, and I think it
same to assume that some of the eggs that are used do have blood
spots. for that matter, how do local bakeries deal with the issue, do
they hire someone for a few hours a day to crack 50 dozen eggs, or is
there another way to explain all this.  shana tova, mike


From: <sales@...> (Mark Katz)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 08:26:27 GMT
Subject: Internet facilities in MINSK

Does anyone know the best way of getting a friend in Minsk onto e-mail etc
(no need currently for fancy ftp, gopher etc)

In fact, information about the former Russia and East Europe generally would
be much appreciated

Best wishes for 5755 to all M-j'ers
Yitz Katz, Brijnet


From: Aryeh Blaut <ny000592@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 03:15:11 -0400
Subject: Mida Hachodesh

I have been given the challenge of developing a Mida Hachodesh program 
in our school (grades Pre-school through 8).

Before I recreate the wheel -- does anyone out there have material which 
would be of help?

	Student source material
	Morah/Rebbe source material
	Classroom posters
	Parent source material
	Assembly ideas

My first one begins Tishrei -- I'm running out of time for #1.

Thanks for your help...

Aryeh Blaut
fax:  (206) 323-5779


From: <daniel@...> (Daniel Levy Est.MLC)
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 94 23:31:31 -0500
Subject: Statistics, Mathematics, and God

I will attempt to bounce some ideas about our "proofs" of the existence
of God around... Because I'd like to know what you think out there in
Jewish readerland Here goes:

1.) I seems to me absurd that we use axioms less common sense-ish than
the the theorem we are attempting to prove. As an example, I submit the
prime mover "proof" which has been used by some Rishonim in different
versions.  Here, in my opinion, some axioms which we admit (such as the
constancy of natural laws) don't make as much sense as just right out
saying that God makes sense, and, in the spirit of the Mesilas Yeshorim,
saying (veze pashut) and this is self- evident(in order not to spiral
into a circular argument which is not convincing).

2.)Now this point may not be so obvious and some of you may get the
impression that I'm kvetching so bear with me a little bit: When we use
statistical evidence (such as in the codes) or plain axiomatic
mathematics, or a combination (the torah-topology-kabbala-whoknowswhat
thing) are we assuming that since these axioms have done a fairly good
job over the years of approximating and modeling physical systems they
work as well for spiritual ones?  Where did we make that jump, and more
importantly, is such a jump warranted???????

<-daniel@...> --look forward to hearing from you on this.


From: <fglazer@...> (Francine S. Glazer)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 09:08:14 EDT
Subject: YU Environment

Michael Broyde says:
Yeshiva University by its definition involves a certain intuitive balance
of Torah and madda that comes from a long association with (the two).  I 
doubt that a person who is only recently accepted the yoke of commandments
has that balance, and can function well in such a place without being 
overwhelmed by all the secular pursuits...

As I understand him, Michael is saying that a recent Baal Teshuva might not
do well at YU because they couldn't handle all the madda mixed in with the
Torah, and might get overwhelmed.  I would argue just the opposite:  that a 
Baal Teshuva, who has grown up in and is accustomed to the secular world, 
might be better suited to YU than to a yeshiva with a smaller component
of madda.  Being in the latter environment would be overwhelming, I think,
while being at a place like YU might provide enough "familiarity" to be 
comfortable enough to allow for _more_ Torah growth.

(Disclaimer:  I have no first-hand experience with YU; I only know what 
has been described on this list and to me by friends.)

Fran Glazer


End of Volume 15 Issue 5