Volume 15 Number 8
                       Produced: Mon Aug 29  0:11:42 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Glatt and chicken (was Eggs)
         [Frank Silbermann]
Glatt Chicken and Eggs
         [Barry Freundel]
Moshiach & Techias HaMeysim
         [David Kaufmann ]
Press Release on new singles program
         [Norman Tuttle]


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 06:29:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Glatt and chicken (was Eggs)

> Mike Grynberg:                               Volume 15 Number 5
> one can purchase glatt chicken, but as far as i know,
> which admittedly is limited, there is no need to even check
> a chicken's lungs. and i have certainly never heard anyone
> say they only eat glatt chicken.

What about glatt fish?  Does it matter with parve animals (chicken is
technically parve, but the Rabbis decided to treat it as meat to avoid
accidental errors).

Frank Silbermann	<fs@...>


From: <Dialectic@...> (Barry Freundel)
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 18:30:39 -0400
Subject: Glatt Chicken and Eggs

There is no such thing as glatt chickens if one uses the term precisely as no
1" tall inspectors exist to check the lungs. It is used to suggest a higher
standard of kashrut. I prefer greater precision of language

I dont know if eggs are checked at big plants the way we do in our kitchen
but I would guess that they are at least candeled which cuts the problem down
considrably. Also the blood spots we find in commercially purchased eggs that
come from hens who never see a rooster are almost certainly Rabbinically
prohibitted at most (they are red dots that lack the white of the developing
embryo) and that creates certain leniencies


From: David Kaufmann  <david@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 09:48:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Moshiach & Techias HaMeysim

>From: David Steinberg <dave@...>
>In mj 14 #69 David Kaufman takes me to task regarding the concerns I had 
>expressed about the dissemination of the notion that the Lubabvitcher 
>Rebbe ztz'l will be resurrected as Moshiach.  In specific, he argues
>".. the real question is not the familiarity of the idea but its Jewish 
>I disagree strongly.
>Dovid HaMelech tells us in Psalms 25:14 Sod Hashem Li'Yeraiov (Hashem's
>secrets are reserved to those who fear Him).  There is a long history of
>discussion as to how Torah may be taught.  Torah may only be taught to
>an appropriate talmid (student).

Well, I will risk the charge of "taking to task" again, if only to
provide a more comprehensive perspective.

The issue of how and to whom to teach Sod (Kabbalah) is discussed in
Rambam. Yet we see that the Arizal, for one, taught publicly and his
thoughts were published and widely distributed. The answer to the above
objection was that the time had become appropriate. In each age we see
an aspect of Torah taught publicly that had not been done so before -
because the time demanded it.

One of the controversies surrounding the "spreading of the Wellsprings,"
i.e., Chassidus was on this topic. As I recall, one of the Vilna Gaon's
philosophical disagreements (before the infamous ban became an issue)
with the Baal Shem Tov was whether Chassidus - or its mystical aspects -
should be publicly taught. That question has, I think obviously, been
answered in favor of the Baal Shem Tov.

>Now admittedly we are not dealing with Yediot (concepts) as esoteric as
>Creation or Merkava.  Nevertheless, we are not dealing with Aleph Beis
>either.  My understanding of the above Gemorah is that we must be
>careful who is taught what information and how it is taught.  Just
>because something is 'Jewishly Valid' does not mean it should be
>disseminated.  I saw news broadcasts in which 7 year olds espoused the
>belief that the Rebbe Ztz'l will be resurrected.  I do not believe that
>7 year olds should be exposed to non-mainstream concepts of this sort.
>The fact that one can find an isolated Medrash or a Sdei Chemed does not
>qualify the concept as fundamental.

There are three separate issues in the above paragraph, and I'll try to
deal with them as such, especially since they are not necessarily

1) Being careful who is taught what and how: While in general this is
good advice for all things, one cannot silence the wind, so to speak: So
much information (and misinformation) is in the air, and the
'atmosphere' is so strongly suspicious of any whiff of censorship, that
we're probably better confronting ideas and laying them out
appropriately than trying to bury or ignore them. The 'streets,' while
often not the most accurate classroom, are usually the most effective

On the disseminaton of 'Jewishly Valid' ideas: on what basis do we
decide which ones to disseminate, how and why? The discussion on saving
a non-Jew on Shabbos is a case in point: should that not have been
discussed publicly (here or on Baltuva)? The statements are in the
sources and there are non-Jews who seek them out and use them.  Better,
I think, following the lead of our Sages and rabbis, to understand
'Jewishly Valid' concepts and develop an approach for explaining them
b'ofen miskabel (so they can be received).

2.  The media, the 7-year old and exposure: Given the media's track
record on Jewish issues, I'm rather skeptical of the value of this
objection. Many, if not most, 7-year olds, with a microphone and a
camera in their face (especially in a time of stress) are likely as not
to "get it wrong" even though they "get it right" privately.
(Interviews with children reveal the adults inability to make
distinctions, moral (sensitivity) or intellectual) as it does the
child's process of perceptual development.

Determining what children should be "exposed" to and whether an idea is
"mainstream" requires more than an 'in my opinion.' (In my opinion.)

3. >The fact that one can find an isolated Medrash or a Sdei Chemed
>does not qualify the concept as fundamental. 

Nor does its 'isolation' _disqualify_ it. The fundamental nature of a
concept does not, logically, depend on its frequency of citation -
either by scholars or lay folk.

Nor is it clear that a non-fundamental concept (a non-principle of
faith) is not, er, fundamental to an understanding and/or praxis.

>To show the level of concern Chazal had regarding the potential danger
>of publicizing ideas look at the Gemorahs in Shaabos 153: and Menochos
>99: where concerns were cited as to teaching specific Halochos to the
>unlearned for fear the Halochos will be misapplied.

There is a story involving the Alter Rebbe about the danger to Torah
of its being taught: A fellow disciple, seeing that some students had
let pages of the Mezritcher Maggid's works be torn out of a book and
be trampled on the ground, became upset and challenged the
appropriateness of teaching Chassidus to the 'uninitiated.' The Alter
Rebbe responded with a parable: A king had an only son who became
quite ill. The doctors determined only one medicine could save the
son, but, after searching all over, they could not find the critical
ingredient - except in the centerpiece jewel of the king's crown.
The king said that nevertheless, the jewel should be taken and ground
up for the medicine, since of what value was the crown or jewel if the
only son should die? By this time, the son's condition was so
critical, it was doubtful the medicine would do any good. Still, the
king said, on the remotest chance that one drop will enter the son's
mouth and revive him, for that all the jewels should be used.

The English language publication of texts and commentaries (Zohar,
etc.) and the condition of Jewish knowledge today make the parable
still relevant.

Most tellingly, the Rebbe himself has addressed the issue many times.
His discussions can be found in his published works.

>Finally, Mr. Kaufman argues that many of the Rebbe Ztz'l's initiatives
>such as Tefillin and Candle-lighting were not adequately admired outside
>of Lubavitch and that Lubavitch rekindled the yearning for Moshiach.

These are not arguments, but facts.

>I was quite careful, in my post, to be respectful of the Rebbe.  Its not
>my place to 'Mish zich in Rebbe Zachin' (butt in or speculate about
>differences Rebbes' politics) But it is not totally apparent that the
>Rebbe himself presented himself as Moshiach.  Was the Rebbe Ztz'l even
>aware of the frenzy of the Heichanu LaMelech HaMoshiach campaign?  (One
>of my friends notes that the campaign did not attain currency while Rav
>Moshe, Rav Yaakov or the Rov were around to respond) Did the Melech
>HaMoshiach frenzy with its dialins and pagers represent a more authentic
>yearning for Moshiach than is manifested in the rest of orthodox jewery?
>Sometimes all the noise is only 'Kol Anos'.

I respectfully suggest you read the Rebbe's sichas, which address many
of your questions here. As to the Rebbe's awareness - while I personally
think it offensive and disrespectful to suggest otherwise - one only has
to look at the videos or be informed of his responses (after the first
Chuf-zayin Adar) to answer that question. (Your friend's note, which I'd
heard before, insults Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov, the Rov, and the Rebbe, on
the one hand, and Chassidim and thoughtful Jews on either side of the
issue. "around to respond"?!?)

The issue was not the _authenticity_ of the yearning, but its
_intensity_ and _immediacy._ I leave it to the historians and
sociologists to provide the data, but I wonder how anyone can think that
Moshiach was the critical issue among the Jewish people in the last
fifty years until the Rebbe made it so.  (Though I daresay among many
leaders of recent times, such as the Chafetz Chaim, it was.)

In short, the question is not if, but how, when, etc.

k'siva v'chasima tova


From: <ntuttle@...> (Norman Tuttle)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 08:09:12 -0400
Subject: Press Release on new singles program

The following is a Press Release that went out in the media about a new
singles program I started called MAZEL TOV.  A similar article has been
printed on page 43 of my August 26, 1994 edition of the JEWISH PRESS (in
the Kosher Food section!).  This shows the type of program which can be
started with a little initiative and a lot of energy and resources, and
if you live in the New York metropolital area, or northern NJ, and are
single, you might be interested in some of the programs.  Our next program
will IY"H occur around Columbus Day (after Simchat Torah), and we hope
to sponsor a slightly younger crowd of participants this time.

The First MAZEL TOV Shabbaton a Smashing Success

By NOSSON TUTTLE  Guest Writer

	The Sabbath August 5-6, 1994, marked the first of the MAZEL TOV 
Shabbatonim, which took place in Monsey and Spring Valley, NY.  Founded 
as an independent organization, with an acronym meaning "Metropolitan 
Area Zivugim Encounters Lishma:  Torah Observant Venue", the goal of 
MAZEL TOV is to increase the community involvement in singles activities 
and increase the communication between the singles themselves and also 
with the rest of the community.
	This particular Shabbaton was geared for ages 29-40.  About half 
of the participants were from out of town, so the coordinators had to 
provide lodging.  For Friday night, three homes provided integrated 
meals:  there were two males and two females from the Shabbaton in each 
home.  The female participants also stayed where they were eating.  The 
coordinators placed people of similar ages at each home.  For Saturday 
lunch, everybody (15 participants, 8 male and 7 female) ate together at 
a rabbi's house.  A speech on the "Ancient Chinese Jewish Community" by 
Professor Sommer (a participant in the program) from St. John's and 
Seton Hall University followed, and then a Singles Discussion on 
"Shidduchim Alternatives" by the head coordinator rounded out the 
Shabbaton.  Participants then took advantage of "third meals" which were 
provided either by their hosts or by the community.
	The meals and the speech/discussion provided opportunities for the 
participants to meet with and speak to each other, and also to meet with 
some married people and Shadchanim in the program.  Some of the 
Shabbaton meal providers were also active in local Shidduch 
organizations.  In his Dvar Torah during the Sabbath day meal, the head 
coordinator pointed out that while it was unlikely that a given person 
would meet his or her Shidduch at the events, the opportunity for 
networking which such events provide should not be underestimated.
	The small-scale nature of the Shabbaton and the no-charge policy 
to participants made the Shabbaton look very attractive.  Held in homes 
instead of hotels and shuls (except for the speech/discussion and 
praying), the setting is much more comfortable and welcoming than the 
typical large-scale Shabbaton.  The meals for the program and lodging 
were provided by volunteer hosts from the community.  Congregation Ohaiv 
Yisroel of Blueberry Hill Rd. in Monsey also did a great service to the 
program by hosting the speaker and discussion, and having many of the 
participants as congregants in its minyanim on the Sabbath.
	Future programs of the MAZEL TOV organization will probably 
concentrate on smaller, hand-picked groups more carefully chosen on the 
basis of age, physical characteristics, and philosophical outlook.  For 
future programs, we hope to also have other age groups (both younger and 
older), participating in Shabbatonim.  We also are considering the 
possibility of expanding the program's host community beyond the Monsey 
area, if we get enough interest from potential hosts and participants 
from other geographical regions.  Currently, we are looking for 
coordinators, hosts, and participants.  If you are interested in 
becoming a participant, send us a Marriage Resume, which should include 
name, phone number, age, physical description, Hashkofa, what you are 
looking for (if you have an idea), job description, or if Kohen, 
divorced, widowed, convert, etc.  Also state where you would like to go 
for the Shabbatonim or other programs.  To become a host, please send us 
information on your name, phone number, location, availability, the shul 
you attend, etc.  All information should be sent to MAZEL TOV, c/o 
Nosson Tuttle, 83 Herrick Ave., Spring Valley, NY 10977.
Alternately, call (914)352-5184.
Or send e-mail to <ntuttle@...>


End of Volume 15 Issue 8