Volume 15 Number 39
                       Produced: Fri Sep 30  1:33:32 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

19-year cycle off by a day
         [Andrew Greene]
Creation and Evolution; question
         [David Neustadter]
Esrog Jelly, Recipe
         [Philip Ledereic]
Esrog Jelly/Jam
         [Aryeh Blaut]
Etrog Jelly
         [Stephen Irwin Weiss]
Frum Dating
         [Sam Juni]
         [William Aberbuch]
Mazal Tov - I'm a Chassan
         [Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund]
Mazal Tov, Mazal Tov
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Pesach in Southern Hemisphere
         [David Curwin]
Western values and Torah
         [Marc Shapiro]


From: <Andrew_Marc_Greene@...> (Andrew Greene)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 18:27 -0400
Subject: 19-year cycle off by a day

>My next birthday being my 19th, my Jewish Birthday and my secular birthday
>will coincide.  I have heard of cases where after 19 years the calendars
>were off by a day.  Does anyone know why that happens?

Remember that the leap year in the "secular" system (named after the Pope who 
first authorised its use) is skipped in years that are divisible by 100 but 
not by 400. The "missing" Feb 29 would account for what you describe.


From: David Neustadter <david@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 08:35:09 +0200
Subject: Creation and Evolution; question

Since the topic of Creation is still bouncing around a bit, I figured
this would be a good place to ask two questions on Parshat Hashavua.

As I mentioned in my last post a few weeks ago, I believe that the story
of Creation and the theory of evolution refer to the same reality.

I'm not sure, however, how literal I expect the story of Creation to be.
How closely should the order of Creation match the real order of
evolution?  How much "poetic license" did G-d take in writing Bereishit;
what parts are there because they really happened that way, and what
parts are there to teach us something?

Question 1)

	If the 6 days of Creation are not 24 hour periods, but rather 6
eras, why are they divided in the way that they are?  One idea that
occured to me is to make clear distinctions between how we should relate
to different classes of things such as non-living vs. plant vs. animal.
Any other ideas out there?

Question 2)

	I can't think of any philosophical reason why the creation of
the heavenly bodies would be stuck in between the creation of plants and
the creation of animals.  For this reason, I thought that maybe it was
in that order because that's the way it really happened.  Does anyone
know of any theories as to when our solar system took the form it
currently has?  Was there plant life on Earth before there were seasons?
(also, did day and night come about long before seasons did as described
in the story of creation?  Did the Earth spin nearby a star (maybe the
sun) before it started to revolve about one?)

I'm curious what people out there think about this.



From: Philip Ledereic <ledereic@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 23:28:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Esrog Jelly, Recipe

The following is a recipe given to us by Rebbetzin Oshry of Flatbush
(E17th & Ave O Brooklyn).  It is quite yummy.  Here is my wife Chani:

Here is a recipe for esrog jelly.
 Soak the esrog for a whole week, changing the water daily.  Then slice
the esrog thinly with the peel. (Leaving the peel on lets you know what
part of the jelly is actual esrog-the texture will be like marmalade.)
Place esrog into a saucepan and cover with water. Bring water to a
boil. Change the water in the pan and boil again. Repeat this step once
more. While waiting for esrog to boil, peel and cut up six to eight
large apples, about four cups.  Add the apples to the pan with the
esrog.  Add two pounds of sugar. (This is not a typo. I said two pounds
of sugar. Esrog by itself is very bitter and if you want it to taste
good you need the sugar.  It will not be too sweet.) Add water to cover
the entire mixture and cook for two hours or until thickened.

The rebbetzin who gave us this recipe said that eating the esrog jelly
is a segulah for sweet and beautiful children, and pregnant women
especially should eat it.  Enjoy!

I've seen in a collection of segulos to eat the esrog jelly on Tu

NOTE: This year (1994) is a Shmittah year, and care need be taken with
Israeli derived Esrogim.  Ask you local orthodox Rabbi about proper
handling of these Esrogim, and about permisibility of eating them Chutz
Laaretz (Some do & some don't).

Pesach & Chani Ledereich


From: Aryeh Blaut <ny000592@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 20:22:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Esrog Jelly/Jam

>>From: <FUCHS@...> (Bezalel Fuchs)
>Does anyone out there have a reipe for esrog jam/jelly.  Someone told me
>once it was very good (not to mention one of the few few things to do
>with your leftover esrogim).  Thanks!

The above may be more than a nice thing to do this year.  All esrogim
from Eretz Yisrael have K'dushas Shvi'is (the holiness of the 7th year)
and need to be eaten or disposed of in a proper way.

Our schule is collecting them to make a jelly/jam for a kiddush.

Aryeh Blaut


From: Stephen Irwin Weiss <sweiss@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Etrog Jelly

regarding recipes for etrog jam -- since this year is shmitta one should 
not really derive any hana'ah (benefit) from the etrog (presumably 
produce of eretz yisrael).

so save those etrog recipes for next year!!!!!! :)

Rabbi Steve Weiss


From: Sam Juni <JUNI%<SNYBKSAC.BITNET@...>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 23:29:27 EST
Subject: Frum Dating

Beryl Phillips (15/26) touches a true sore point in the dating
competition where doing things quicker than the other is a merit. He
then goes to hypothesize that the frum dating sequence is accelerated
because they have a very small checklist (Midos, religiosity, Hashkofo).

I find this rationale eerie.  It sound almost like shopping for modular
furniture -- all basic goods are interchangeable.  I think the above
checklist is one of prerequisites, necessary but not sufficient to call
a match.  Indeed, if the list is all there is, why bother meeting a
prospect at all? Just go by the data!

I hate to think that personality and temperament compatibility are not
considered in some of these match (or match races).  There are as many
incompatibilities among frum folks as there between others.  To get a
sense of compatibility, one needs to live through a sampling of the
common trials and tribulations of married life: disappointment, sudden
news, crisis, challenge, competition, initiative, among loads of others.
How do you do that in several marathon sessions?

While on the topic, let me add a point which has been sitting on my mind
some time.  One poster (some time ago, I forgot who) told the story of
of a religious engaged couple where the mother of the groom suddenly
died, whereupon the father of the groom elected to usurp the bride from
his son; the bride agreed, and so did the son, and all lived happily
ever after.  The point of the story had something to do with the
"proper" hashkafa toward marriage. To me, the story has a haunting
theme. It illustrates the interchangeability of parts and the lack of
stress on the partners as individuals (rather than role
fulfillers). Most of the people I know would show more attachments to
their cars.

  I was just told the "exciting" news that one of my acquaintances who
  became engaged to her "first" had the reciprocal honor of also being
  his "first."  Now isn't that special?


From: William Aberbuch <WAberbuc@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 17:33:00 PDT
Subject: Ketuba's

Anyone have any good sayings or readings for Ketuba's??

Toda Raba, 


From: <sgutfreund@...> (Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund)
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 20:40:13 IST
Subject: Mazal Tov - I'm a Chassan

************* I'm a Chassan!!!!!!!!!!!! *******

As of this erev Sukkot. The girl is Shulamis Yehudis Orenstein
(editor, publisher, writer, etc.) of the Jewish Women's Journal.

Don't ask about dates for the wedding (well probably Kislev sometime)
but for now I am in an olem higher than atzilut or even A"K (olomos,
nistarim b' or ein sof).

Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund	 	            <sgutfreund@...>
GTE Laboratories,Waltham MA     http://info.gte.com/ftp/circus/home/home.html


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 10:24 O
Subject: Mazal Tov, Mazal Tov

  A few weeks ago, we announced the engagement of our oldest Daughter
Michal to Avi Jacob (of Ramot, formerly of Cleveland). We are now
pleased and proud to announce the engagement of my son Yaakov to Shira
Marocco (of Cleveland).  We count ourselves truly blessed on both

      Shana Tovah, Horef Tov, mazal Tov and Kol Tuv to all
                       Aryeh and Esther Frimer


From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 17:49:38 EDT
Subject: Pesach in Southern Hemisphere

As we know, it is a Tora law that Pesach must fall in the Aviv, the
spring. Two questions:
1) When do we say the spring has begun? According to halacha, the
autumn equinox is not September 22 (because we say "ten tal u'matar"
on Dec 4, which is supposed to be 60 days after the fall equinox, and
it is not 60 days after September 22). So when is the spring equinox
calculated to be according to halacha?
2) By all counts, the spring equinox does not come in Nissan in the
Southern Hemisphere. So how can Jews in South America, South Africa
and Australia honestly celebrate Pesach?


From: Marc Shapiro <mshapiro@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 21:58:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Western values and Torah

For those who don't agree with what I wrote re. Western values making 
people more sensitive, how to explain the following, which I believe to 
be indisputable. Before modern times there seems to have been no moral 
problems with the killing of all men women and children as described in 
the Bible. At least I am unaware of more than one or two sources which 
seemed bothered by it. Even today, in traditional commentaries and 
Hasidic commentaries the attitude is simply God said to kill them and 
tha't all. It is only people who have imbibed Western values who struggle 
with these texts and dwell upon them. I have been told by a former rebbe 
of mine, who agrees completely with this analysis, that this itself shows 
that Western values are dangerous since they create problems which Torah 
does not have. I do not now wish to defend or attack Western values, just 
to point out that it is true what I wrote previously, namely that it is 
precisely those with educations that stress liberal values who are more 
apt to be sensitive to racial matters.
	Since so much has been said recently on the white-black issue I 
should point out a very strange comment I just saw on  this week's 
parshah (Bereshit) S. D. Luzzatto (Igrot p. 1363) points to Rashi, Gen. 
3: 17 where Bereshit Rabbah is quoted as saying that the Earth is cursed 
and Midrash explains that man will have to contend with insects. Luzzatto 
asks why insects and not lions tigers bears scorpions snakes etc. which 
are certainly much more dangerous and troublesome. He answers that since 
insects are black they are a sign of curse and points to a number of 
texts which speak of black as bad. True, at the end he backtracks from 
this explanation and says that the reason the Midrashpoints to insects is 
that they are a different kind of bother in that they constantly surround 
us, even getting into our  house and we can not protect ourselves from 
them as we do lions etc. 
	In general, the first parshah of the Torah is full of great 
explanations as well as difficulties. (I recently saw that Schorr, the 
first extreme Jewish Bible critic, even emends the first verse of Gen to 
read Bereshit bara elohim et ha-mayim ve-et ha-aretz. Needless to say, 
thiks creates more difficulties than it solves.) Everyone always asks how 
God could create light before there was a sun. The Kabbalists point out 
that this is not really your average light. Rather, the gematria of et 
ha-or is 613 which equals ba-Torah. That is, God created the light which 
is the mitzvot which = the Torah. That is, the verse is not saying that 
God created light as we know it, but the Torah which is light was created 
before the rest of the world.
					Marc Shapiro


End of Volume 15 Issue 39