Volume 15 Number 42
                       Produced: Mon Oct  3  0:03:07 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Gmar Chatima Tova and a virtual choclate cigar
         [Yaacov Fenster]
Hallachic Paradox
         [Sam Juni]
Israeli Esrogim and Shemittah
         [Michael Broyde]
Judaism and Vegetarianism
         [Yechezkel Schatz]
Maftir Yonah - Segulah
         [Orin D. Golubtchik]
Meaning of Hebrew word "nes"
         [Jonathan Katz]
Reading the Ketuba at the Chuppa
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Refridgerators on Shabat
         [David Curwin]
Shabbat Elevators
         [Michael Broyde]
stained glass windows--update
         [Allison Fein]
Tzitz Eliezer of Waldenberg
         [Jim Sinclair]
         [Robert Braun]
Writing G-d in English (2)
         [Michael Broyde, Yitzchok Adlerstein]


From: Yaacov Fenster <fenster@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 08:04:49 EDT
Subject: Gmar Chatima Tova and a virtual choclate cigar

We [Havatzelet and I] are happy to announce the birth of a baby boy Dean
David on Friday night the 16th of September, Eve of Yud Bet Tishrei.

To all those whom this happy personal occurrence has interfered with our
relationship, I beg forgiveness.

While it is customary to give out cigars on these occasions, it is a
little hard to e-mail them out, to say nothing of the fact that I don't
like them.  So please accept this virtual chocolate cigar box:


	Gmar Chatima Tova
% Yaacov Fenster		(603)-881-1154  DTN 381-1154
% <y.fenster@...>	      fenster@world.std.com
% <fenster@...>   Yaacov.Fenster@zko.mts.dec.com 


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 22:29:52 EST
Subject: Hallachic Paradox

In connection with my previous post re evidence for a mechanistic model
of Talmudic constructs (in contrast to positivistic), I came across an
interesting formulation in Kiddushin 50-51. The case is where a man
gives money to two women and states that "one of you is betrothed to
me."  This is not a case where there is any unclarity of intention or
willingness re either of the parties involved. The gemmarrah assumes
practically without dissent that the resulting state is one of
"betrothal in doubt" since it cannot be determined which of the two is
betrothed. (There is one dissenting view based on an ancillary opinion
that an indeterminate marriage is invalid ipso facto.)

I find this citation salient to my point because the "doubt" is not at
all contingent on any question.  Mechanistically, it is as if one let
loose a force which has random effects.  It cannot be conceptualized
positivistically without a complicated structure of a state which is
meant to merely simulate a mechanistsic model while it is in fact


From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 13:53:22 EDT
Subject: Israeli Esrogim and Shemittah

 A number of writers have written about the use of Israeli Esrogim this
year, since they are a product of shemittah.  The broad concensus of
authorties rule that it is permiteed to eat such esrogim, albeit with
certain conditions.
 Those authorites who rely on the heter mechira rule it completely
permissible to eat the etrog.
 Those who do not either accept one of two basic heterim.  There is
otzar beit din which collects nearly all etrogim.  If you have an otzar
beit din etrog, you have to eat it with kedushat sheveit and before the
time of biur (in a couple of months).  To eat it with kedushat sheveit
you must not throw any edible part out prior to spoiling and you may not
feed to to an animal of a gentile.  Rav S.Z Auerbach has another
rationale for eating based on the principle that guarded and watched
fruits are permissible.  Many agree with him(including Chazon Ish and
Iggrot Moshe) and thus permit the use of even non otzar beit dis
esrogim.  Nearly all esrogim in America are Otzar beit din.  The general
assertion that one should not eat such an etrog is wrong.


From: Yechezkel Schatz
Date: 2 Oct 1994 11:10:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Judaism and Vegetarianism

  Warren Burstein writes: 
>I think that what we are commanded to do is to follow current medical
>advice.  As this advice tells us to limit meat (and dairy, in 
>reference to the message about eliminating milk from our diet) intake
>rather than to eliminate them from our diet, I think that is precisely
>what we are commanded to do. 

I tend to agree with Warren.  It is a fact that the Torah expects us to
eat meat from time to time (at least once a year, for Korban Pesach, the
passover sacrifice, may we be zoche to bring it bimherah b'yameinu!).
Furthermore, I'm inclined to think that the fact that the Torah so
naturally commands us to eat meat under certain circumstances, may show
that eating meat is not quite as hazardous to our health as contemporary
health fads make it seem.


From: Orin D. Golubtchik <ogolubtc@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 16:24:16 EDT
Subject: Maftir Yonah - Segulah

Over Yom Tov, we were discussing shuls, and the various manners in which
kibbudim are distributed on the yamim noraim (not the subject of this mail,
but personally a touchy one anyway) and came up to Maftir Yonah, which is
read during Mincha on Yom Kippur.  At this point, someone said that reading
Maftir Yonah on Yom Kippur is supposed to be a segulah for children, and that
the family of the man who reads it will be blessed with many/more children in
the near future.  My question - has anyone ever heard of this? and if so, do
they have a source for this ?
Thank You,


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 11:22:18 EDT
Subject: Meaning of Hebrew word "nes"

While at the Bible museum in Israel, I came across a fact which, though
I must have "known" before, I have never really given much thought to.
Apparently, the word "nes" (nun-samech) NEVER (and I have checked on
this a little bit) means "miracle" in the Torah, or the Tanach for that
matter.  "nes" can mean two things in the Torah (both deriving from
different roots, I presume). One is "flag" or "pole" or something along
those lines. The other is in the sense of "running away" (i.e. Lanus
(lamed-nun-vav-samech)).  My question is: does anyone have a theory of
when/how the word "nes" came to mean EXCLUSIVELY "miracle", as it does

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 09:09 O
Subject: Reading the Ketuba at the Chuppa

Daviv Ben Chaim is bothered by the reading of the ketuba. There is no
Halakhic obligation to read the ketuba at the Wedding. Tosaphot in Arvei
pesakhim 102B s.v. She-ein states that the whole purpose of reading the
ketuba is to serve as a hefsek between the Kidushin and the Nisuin so
that two cups of wine can be used. Any other interruption could be used,
like a short speech. The best Traditional solution is to read a modified
form of the ketubah in which the rabbi summarizes the content - that the
Husband will support and cherish his wife etc.etc.  As in so many other
cases, the major problem is one of sensitivity and creativity - not
                Mazal Tov

[Similar responses received from: David Kramer <davidk@...>
and Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...>. Mod.]


From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 22:40:09 EDT
Subject: Refridgerators on Shabat

I am not knowledgable about electricity - either halachically or technically-
but something just occurred to me that might be a problem. What I have
always done on Shabat is to unscrew the lightbulb from my refrigerator. This
at least eliminates the problem of "esh" (fire) when I open the door. But
what I am wondering about now is if the opening of the door sends some
sort of electrical signal to the socket, and if that in itself would
be halachically forbidden. My wife says we should just tape the button
down that lets the fridge know the door has been opened, but that is too
simple and not always practical. Any ideas?

David Curwin		      Bnei Akiva's Shaliach to the Net
904 Centre St.          List Owner of B-AKIVA on Jerusalem One
Newton, MA 02159                   <6524dcurw@...>
617 527 0977          Why are we here? "L'hafitz Tora V'Avoda"


From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 94 23:43:19 EDT
Subject: Shabbat Elevators

I am writing on halachic issues involved in the use of shabbat
elevators, working on various types of modern elevators.  I am looking
for a person with practical experiance in elevator repair and
construction rather than a person with a more theoretical perspective (I
am fairly fluent with the theory issues at this point) to allow me to
reveiw with this person various practical issues concerning the modern
contruction of elevators.  Particularly I need someone who can describe
changes in the field since the mid 1980's.  Any help would be welcomed.

Rabbi Michael Broyde
404 727-7546 (voice); 404 727-6820 (fax); <relmb@...> (emai


From: Allison Fein <fein@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 10:08:03 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: stained glass windows--update

Earlier this year, I sent a message about available windows from a NY
synagogue.  The synagogue is now officially moving, and is interested in
making a decision on the donation/sale of these treasures.

Please contact:  Rabbi Kenny at the Fur center Synagogue 230 W 29th street
New York, NY 10001   or call (212)-594-9480.   I'm sorry, but the Rabbi has
no E-mail access.  


From: Jim Sinclair <GOLEM@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 12:28:53 CDT
Subject: Tzitz Eliezer of Waldenberg

Does anyone know if this resource is available in electronic form through
the Internet?  My rabbi found out that it contains a responsum about the
status of intersexed people.  We don't have a nearby Jewish library that
would have it in book form.  Pointers much appreciated!

(I'm sending this to three different lists.  Apologies if you've seen it
more than once.)


From: <REB@...> (Robert Braun)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 16:58:59 -0800
Subject: Weddings

I must take issue with David Ben-Chaim's "humble opinion" that the
orthodox wedding ceremony is "utterly tasteless."  While I am not
orthodox, I was married in an orthodox ceremony which both my wife and I
considered not only tasteful, but beautiful and personally meaningful.
The reading of the Ketubah is far more than the reading of a contract;
it is a forceful reminder of the fact that two individuals are entering
into a relationship with obligations to each other, and that failure to
take meet those obligations has meaningful consequences.

You are also forgetting that the orthodox Jewish marriage ceremony, as
presently conducted, consists of several parts, all of which build to a
wonderful climax.

Finally, with reference to the "Bride for a Day" language, is that any
less a statement of contractual commitment?


From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 13:28:29 EDT
Subject: Writing G-d in English

One of the writers quoted one of his "rabbinical school teachers" as
refering to the custom of writing "G-d" as "hungarian fanaticism." I am
a bit befuddled by the ad hominam nature of the remark by this teacher
Needless to say, there is a clear halachic source for this custom; see
Shach Y.D. 179:11 and commentaries on it as well as Pitchai Teshuva Y.D.
276:10-12.  While normative halacha appears to disagree with those whole
rule that the writing of "g-d" is mandatory, I seriously doubt if it is
any form of "hungarian fanaticism."

In general, I would prefer if people dealing with halachic issues chose
to cite sources and recount the names of the people they are quoting.  I
suspect that the rabbinical school teacher quoted is a professor at a
Conservative rabbinical seminary.

Michael Broyde

From: Yitzchok Adlerstein <ny000594@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 12:26:41 -0800
Subject: Writing G-d in English

Readers will hopefully realize that typifying the insistence on using a
hyphen in the word "G-d" as "Hungarian fanaticism" (as one recent
posting attributed to an unnamed Rosh Yeshiva) is typical of the
hyperbolic expression of many great Torah minds, but not to be taken
literally.  While there is an abundance of halachic material suggesting
that there should be nothing wrong with abandoning the hyphen (and all
the more so through e-mail, where there is no hard copy), nonetheless
the practice does have support.  See Shut Achiezer, 3:32, end, who
endorses it, and accepts it as the prevailing custom.  And Rav Chaim
Ozer (considered by the Chofetz Chaim to be the Gadol Hador of his
generation), was neither Hungarian nor a fanatic.

Yitzchok Adlerstein
Yeshiva of Los Angeles


End of Volume 15 Issue 42