Volume 15 Number 76
                       Produced: Sun Oct 16 11:10:57 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Birkat Hamazon Question  15 #21
         ["Neil Parks"]
Biur Ethrogim
         [Shalom Krischer]
Creation and Science
         [Yechezkel Schatz]
Eating Esrog
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
General Query for Members
         [Stan Tenen]
Jews in China
         [Gena Rotstein]
Judaism and Vegetarianism
         [Warren Burstein]
Making Blanket Halakhic Statements
         [Isaac Balbin]
Pets on Shabbos
         [Stephen Phillips]
reading literature
         [Shlomo Engelson]
Sanctity of the Synagogue
         [Stephen Phillips]
         [Zvi Weiss]


From: "Neil Parks" <aa640@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 17:51:12 EDT
Subject: Birkat Hamazon Question  15 #21

>: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum) said
>...The Magen
>Avraham discusses on what basis "present" women do say these phrases.
>...Also, he adds,
>under certain circumstances a woman is considered as one who is already
>circumcised, so maybe women can thank G-d for the brit milah.

This is also one of the reasons that women say "sheh-asani kirtzono" (he 
made me according to his will), while men cannot say that.  Males are born 
imperfect because they require circumcision.  Females are complete, right 
off the "assembly line".


From: Shalom Krischer <PGMSRK@...>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 12:26:19 EDT
Subject: Biur Ethrogim

>I was always under the impression that "Etz Hadar" was identified as the
>Esrog tree because the fruit remained from year to year if not picked.
>How can there be a date when "no more ethrogim are on the trees" ?

I never heard of this explanation before, but let me try to make some
sense it.  I remember hearing that the Esrog takes two years to mature
(unlike other fruits that mature the same year).  In fact, one year when
I was in Israel for Sukkot, I was amazed at the size of the Esrogim used
by some Yemenites...they use second year fruits.  If Lon's posting is
read as "when no more _RIPE_ ethrogim are on the tree", this explanation
works nicely (the tree is ALWAYS "decorated" hence Hadar).

Shalom Krischer


From: Yechezkel Schatz <lpschatz@...>
Date: 11 Oct 1994 18:43:48 +0200
Subject: Creation and Science

Moshe E. Rappoport <mer@...> said:
>My questions to the readers of this list is, is there a practical
>way to be a modern scientist, while still sticking to a 5744 year old
>universe, at least when talking to other Jews,(with the usual disclaimers
>about   1) the world having been created in an "old" state, 2) The world may
>have aged quickly at some points along the way.)
>I'm actually curious how you cope inwardly with the "apparent
>contradiction" between our Mesorah and modern scientific belief.

In his book "Amitoot Chronologiat HaTanach" (Credibility of the Biblical
Chronology), Hotzaat Aleph, my father, Elihu Schatz, brings his theories
on the topic.
 Many apparent contradictions can be explained by the mabool
(deluge). For instance: when testing for C-14 levels, the most credible
of all geological tests,with the least amount of assumptions underlying
it, we are still assuming that the rate for C-14 break-down was always
the same.  And yet, a pressure of about 5000 meters of water covering
the earth's surface could have an affect on these rates.  What I am, in
effect saying, is that C-14 tests are very accurate for any date after
the deluge, but not at all for any before the Mabool!  Many other
problems can be explained by the mabool.  My father discusses them at
length in his book.


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 8:52:08 EDT
Subject: Eating Esrog

> >From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
>    Michael Broyde points out that many poskim allow eating shemiitah
> esrogim from an Otzar Bet Din. However, this is only eating in the
> "normal way". Is making the esrog into a jam its normal way?

Is there any other "normal" way of eating an etrog (or lemon)?
Marmalade (with the peel) or jelly (with just the juice) are the only
way I know of.  Or do you mean can the jam or marmalade of a fruit ever
be the "normal" way of eating it?

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 19:56:44 -0700
Subject: General Query for Members

Does anyone know of a scholar with academic credentials in paleography, 
Semitic history, archeology, or a related subject, who lives in western 
Washington State?  I need to speak with someone who is familiar with the 
development of western alphabets.

Stan Tenen
Meru Foundation                     Internet:    <meru1@...>
P.O. Box 1738                       CompuServe:  75015,364
San Anselmo, CA 94979 U.S.A.       (415) 459-0487


From: Gena Rotstein <JSF@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94  19:26:40 EDT
Subject: Jews in China

Hello again.

First of all thank you to everyone who was able to help me find Marc
Belzberg.  He actually got a hold of me because of the posting.

I am writing my thesis this year, and the topic is one which has got
very little publicity.  It is the Jewish community in China (Shanghai)
during the early 1900's up until WWII (even a little past - I haven't
defined myself yet).  I am looking for primary sources and I am willing
to pay to have the originals or copies sent to me.  If you or anyone you
know have journals, diaries, old newspapers or if you know of anyone who
has done research in the area, or lived in China please contact me.

My email is: <JSF@...>

Phone:  (416) 650-3927
I live in Toronto.

Thank you very much,



From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:16:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Judaism and Vegetarianism

In answer to the question of "who knows what a safe level is" - for
purpose of halacha, your doctor knows (and knows better than to
extrapolate from studies about high-fat diets or a single study).

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 08:23:20 +1000
Subject: Making Blanket Halakhic Statements

  | >From: <LANDAU@...> (Jerrold Landau)
  | article of clothing.  For a man, a watch is not considered a tachshit,
  | and therefore cannot be worn when there is no eruv.  I'm not sure about

It would be advisable that people not make blanket statements like this
(since they are wrong). Whilst there are opinions that prohibit a watch,
there are opinions that permit it under certain circumstances and
opinions that permit it---period.

It is far more constructive and accurate for authors of articles to
quote halachik sources and say that `So and so opines that ...'

[First, I strongly second Isaac's remarks, Second,  when you read such
blanket statements,  I would recommend doing an internal translation to
Isaacs form. Mod]


From: <stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Pets on Shabbos

> >From: Gad Frenkel <0003921724@...>
> It seems clear that petting is not a issue since
> even if pets are muktza, according to my understanding, the issur
> regarding muktza is one of moving the object, not simply touching it.
> The question that I am most concerned with is actually lifting or
> holding an animal such as a hamster or a cat.

If you pet an animal, then you are moving its fur and will (especially
in the molting season) probably cause some hairs to be removed. I don't
know, therefore, whether petting can be considered a Shabbos use.

Stephen Phillips


From: <engelson@...> (Shlomo Engelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:30:46 +0300
Subject: Re: reading literature

Shaul Wallach writes, among other things, that

  *  People must be very careful about reading literature
     that has not been checked.

Who does the checking of this literature, then, if one cannot read
something that has not been checked?  And which "hashgachot" are to be
considered acceptable?  And by what standards are these books to be
checked?  I am reminded of the recent blacklisting (at least in the
US) of the books _They Called Her Rebbe_ (on Btulat Ludomir) and
_Black Becomes A Rainbow_ (by a non-frum woman on being the mother of
a Ba`al Tshuvah.  I am also reminded of the burning of the Moreh
Nevuchim (Guide For The Perplexed).



From: <stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Sanctity of the Synagogue

> >From: Barry Siegel <sieg@...>
> There is a book called:
>  "Mikdash Me'at on The Sanctity Of The Synagogue"
> This book deals with the topics of:
>  1) talking in the synagouge (during services)
>  2) answering AMEN properly

Several copies of this book appeared (from where I do not know) in our
Shul library. I was in two minds as to whether the book should be
allowed to be on show for two reasons. First, I am suspicious of a book
that has no author/editor's name and also has no Haskomos [approbations]
from leading Rabbonim (the book refers to the opinion of various Roshei
Yeshivah without ever naming them). Secondly, although I was able to
check out some of the sources quoted and they were correct, the book did
contain passages likely to (and perhaps calculated to) put the "fear of
Hell" in the reader. For someone who is finding their way back to
Yiddishkeit, they may find this book not a little off-putting and its
effect may be counterproductive.

I would welcome comments from anyone else who has read the book or
who knows its publishers.

Stephen Phillips


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 08:46:43 -0400
Subject: Software

Re David Taback's comments:
There may be an issue of HAsagat Gevul with software IF we assume that
there is a correlation between copyrighting and hasagat gevul...
I once discussed w/ my brother the possibility of structuring a sale of
software such that if the user copied it and gave / sold such copies,
the sale would be retroactively nullified but the our analysis was incon-



End of Volume 15 Issue 76