Volume 15 Number 82
                       Produced: Tue Oct 18 23:46:59 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Another Note: Project Genesis Lists
         [Yaakov Menken]
Book Search
         [Laurel Bauer]
         [Freda B. Birnbaum]
Frum Views of BT Pre-Frum Lifestyles
         [Janice Gelb]
Koheleth: Silver cord, etc.
         [David Charlap]
Sam Juni's request for intuitive understanding of Zeno
         [Jules Reichel]
Shabbat Shalom Weekly List!
         ["Rabbi Kalman Packouz"]
The Orthodox Male's View of Women
         [Esther R Posen]
Yeshivot Online (2)
         [Joseph Steinberg, Avi Feldblum]
Yom Kippur
         [Stephen Phillips]


From: Yaakov Menken <ny000548@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 08:16:51 -0400
Subject: Another Note: Project Genesis Lists

Hello all - Project Genesis has recently begun two more educational
lists, and has just put up its own Gopher menus at Shamash.

Users should gopher shamash.nysernet.org (alias israel.nysernet.org) 14.
Project Genesis, The Jewish Renewal Network/

We have two sections - one for our campus organizations and their
affiliates, and one covering our Global Learning Network, which now
comprises the following lists:

Genesis - Weekly D'var Torah with information on lists & programs
DvarTorah - Divrei Torah from around the world - with volunteer contributors
Gossip  - Or, what _not_ to say - with Ellen Solomon
Halacha-Yomi - Jewish Law, Daily - with a roundtable of contributors
Maharal - The Sayings of the Fathers with Maharal's commentary
Proverbs - The Book of Mishlei, Elucidated by Rabbi Yaakov Spivak
Ramchal - Rabbi M.C. Luzzato's "Path of the Just" w/ Rabbi Yaakov Menken
RavFrand - Rabbi Yissachar Frand's weekly parsha class from Baltimore
Tefila - A discussion of Jewish prayer with Rabbi Chaim Szmidt

We especially encourage readers to sign up for the Genesis list, which
provides information on all of our activities as well as our many lists.
It is our sincere hope to be able to answer the needs of those seeking
Jewish educational material, all around the world.

To join any of our lists, readers should mail <listproc@...>
Subject: <none>
subscribe Listname Jon Plony

You may wish to include a pointer to our services in your hotlist, bookmark
or server:     URL:gopher://israel.nysernet.org:70/11/progen
#  Text for inclusion in .Links file -
Name=Project Genesis, The Jewish Renewal Network

Rabbi Yaakov Menken
Project Genesis, the Jewish Renewal Network


From: Laurel Bauer <BAUER@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:35:23 -0400
Subject: Book Search

Several months ago an m-j person mentioned the book Ba'al Hak'riah by
Michael Bar-Lev.  A person to whom I subsequently mentioned the book has
been unable to find it or even find a jewish bookstore or publisher who
knows of it.  If anyone has located a copy of the book, I would
appreciate knowing from where it can be ordered.

laurel bauer


From: Freda B. Birnbaum <FBBIRNBAUM@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 23:23:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Censorship

In V15N76, Shlomo Engelson catches the paradox in the statement that one
ought to be careful about reading literature that has not been checked,
and comments:

>I am reminded of the recent blacklisting (at least in the
>US) of the books _They Called Her Rebbe_ (on Btulat Ludomir) and
>_Black Becomes A Rainbow_ (by a non-frum woman on being the mother of
>a Ba`al Tshuvah.  

I managed to get a copy of the first book (perhaps the upper west side
of Manhattan is a little less nervous than some parts of Brooklyn!) and
someone lent me the second.  I wasn't particularly impressed with the
second (I thought that either the daughter was incredibly inconsiderate
and self-centered, or was being exaggeratedly portrayed that way (or
both)); I wasn't aware that the book was being blacklisted.  What were
the objections to it?  That the frum person was being painted in a less
than wonderful light?

There have been occasions in my life when I have accepted the advice of
someone I respected that a particular book might not be the thing for me
to be reading at a particular time *, but I can hardly imagine doing a
wholesale handing over of my judgment to someone else, in advance.

* The book was one of Thomas Mann's Joseph books, probably _Joseph in
Egypt_.  I asked for and received an explanation that made sense to me
-- Mann used a lot of Midrashic material but from such a non-Jewish
perspective that someone without the background and education (which I
certainly had less of 25 years ago than I do now!) wouldn't be able to
see where he was off the mark.


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:52:24 +0800
Subject: Frum Views of BT Pre-Frum Lifestyles

In Vol. 15 #72, Freda Birnbaum says:
> On a somewhat related note, I would like to remind mail-jewish readers
> that the non-frum world is not always the Sodom-and-Gomorrah that some
> people imagine it to be.  I have good friends who are converts or
> baalei-tshuva who are continually amazed at the assumptions some people
> make about what their pre-frum "lifestyle" must have been like, when in
> fact their behavior in those areas was quite similar to what any
> halacha-observing person's ought to be.

I have definitely also encountered this phenomenon: when I was living in
Israel for the first time (at the age of 24), I got fixed up for Shabbat
by a guy who came to our ulpan to try to get people to experience a frum
Shabbat. I was placed with a family originally from the States. During
dinner I said very little because someone with absolutely no background
was also there and they concentrated mainly on him once they saw I
pretty much knew my way around Shabbat and meal-time activities.

After dinner, he left and my host began a conversation with me by saying
"Well, I understand you're from the U.S. and not from a religious
background. I thought I should let you know that you shouldn't marry a
Cohen." I was surprised and responded that I was neither divorced nor
dead so why was I ineligible? He responded, "I assume at your age you've
slept with non-Jewish men and that makes you ineligible." This without
knowing *anything* about my background, my upbringing, anything!

After I recovered from my shock, I told him that he knew nothing about
me at all that would warrant him making such a remark and asked him why
he thought I would take anything seriously that he had to say after
beginning with a personal attack like that.  And then he apologized if
he had upset me -- as if there was any other way to take that remark!

Luckily, I knew other very religious people who were warm and accepting
but if this had been my first exposure to frumkeit I would have
definitely run the other way.

Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
<janiceg@...>   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 13:44:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Koheleth: Silver cord, etc.

Jay Bailey <jbailey@...> writes:
>In response to Barry (?) Friedman's question about Koheleth
>12:6... These are images of death, and there are actually 2, not 4:
>1) a silver cord was traditionally used to hold a lamp. It snaps,
>   lamp breaks. The lamp is thus extinguished. This is the "bowl" in
>   the next pasuk.  ...

This is interesting.  It now seems clear where the "new-age" mystics
(and the people they base their ideas on) got the concept of a "silver
cord".  For those not familiar, those traditions believe there is a
"silver cord" connecting a person's soul to his body, and when the
cord breaks, the body dies.

Sounds like a perfect mis-interpretation of that sentance.  An obvious
one if you don't know that silver cords are used to hang lamps.


From: <JPREICHEL@...> (Jules Reichel)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:20:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sam Juni's request for intuitive understanding of Zeno

Sam Juni again posted that the flaw in the paradox is not intuitive. I'll
do the fly and the train, although Sam has also offered the hare and the
tortoise. First he asks, "Is there a last trip of the fly before it stops
moving?" He thinks that the answer is yes, but I think that it's no. There
are an infinite number of steps. By which I mean whichever step you say is
last, there is always at least one more. But the issue is so what? 
Consider two rulers, each one foot long. One is ruled off in 1/16ths of an
inch, and one with an infinite number of rulings. Have I made the ruler longer
by adding an infinite number of rulings? Nope. Still one foot. I slowly move
my finger across the first ruler, and after one second I have passed over
20 rulings. I do the same with the other ruler and I have passed over a 
"zillion" rulings, really an infinite number. Did passing over an infinite
number of rulings slow me down or prevent me from reaching the end of the 
ruler? Of course not. Back to the fly and the train. We know how far the 
fly flew: It's the time to collision times the fly's velocity (i.e. 200mph).
That's like the length of my ruler. Now mark off the distance of each flight
on my imaginary ruler. How many rulings will there be? An infinite number,
although it won't be uniform as in my earlier ruler. But as in the other
case so what? Do the infinite number of rulings slow me down or prevent me
from sliding my finger over the full one foot length? Nah. Why isn't this     
sufficiently intuitive? I didn't rely on any rules of math, just common


From: "Rabbi Kalman Packouz" <ny000982@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 94 23:48:07 -0500
Subject: Shabbat Shalom Weekly List!

The Shabbat Shalom Weekly is an Aish HaTorah publication for Jews with
little or no background who would like a Jewish connection.
Entertaining, interesting and meaningful are words used to describe it
by it's readers.  The format: question and answer on a Jewish topic
relevant to life, a Torah portion overview, a Dvar Torah (insights into
life and personal growth from a question on the weekly Torah portion), a
Freebee offer, some candlelighting times, Aish news and a quote of the
week. It is read by approximately 15,000 people world-wide each week via
fax and e-mail.

To subscribe: send to <Listproc@...> the following message:
subscribe shabbatshalom <Your Name> substituting your name for <Your Name>.


From: <eposen@...> (Esther R Posen)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 12:43:13 -0400
Subject: The Orthodox Male's View of Women

I have read the posts on Jewish women and have been reluctant to enter
into the discussion but as I am not known for my reticence I can not
longer resist contributing my two cents.

First off, you gentelmen are giving yourselves away.  As a woman, I
learn much more about a specific man rather than about the Torah's view
of women, by the passage of the torah they choose to quote.

Our multifaceted torah says "Noshim Daytin Kalot" and "Binah yisayra
yaish linoshim".  One can talk about Bruria, Devorah, Yael and Miriam or
spout talmud that declares that all women should stay home behind locked
doors (Kol kvudah bat melech pnima.)  One could quote gemarrah
describing how a man is allowed to divorce his wife if she burns the
food (And hanker for the days when this was common practice - was it
common practice?), or one could quote gemarrah that commands a man to
honor his wife more than he honors himself.

So, what does this all mean?  It means you can tell alot about a man by
the repertoire of jewish facts and fiction about women he collects.  You
can certainly tell alot about his relationship with his significant
other.  Sometimes you can tell alot about the relationship he wishes he
had etc. etc.  I tend to learn very little of actual value about the
torah's view on women.  Suffice it to say, that the jewish woman as well
as the torah is multi-faceted (sheva panim l'torah).

On another issue, I have long wondered why it is better for an orthodox
man to join the secular work force than it is for an orthodox woman to
do so. It has been my observation that men are more susceptible to the
lures of the office (namely women) than women are susceptible to the
availability of men.  I have observed many more married men taking up
with single women than I have observed married women "getting involved"
with single (or married men).  I have no talmud to quote on this, but
this seems to stem from the differnces in the nature of men and women.
Maybe the men should stay home and learn? wash the dishes? watch the
kids? and the women should brave the trials (and I in no way intend to
mitigate their significance) of the workplace.



From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:28:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Yeshivot Online

Anyone who knows of the email addresses/ listserv addresses for Yeshivot /
Midrashot (Seminaries) in Israel is requested to send this info to
<jstein@...> A list of Yeshivot/Midrashot in Israel
with internet addresses is being compiled. Thanks. 
Joseph Steinberg

From: mljewish (Avi Feldblum)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 01:19:05 EDT
Subject: Yeshivot Online

The same request as above, but for American Yeshivot, as well as a copy
of the Israeli Yeshivot info, I would appreciate if you sent to me
(<mljewish@...>) as well.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: <stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur

> >From: Arnie Kuzmack <kuzmack@...>
> 2)  Yom Kippur and non-Jews.
> Claire Austin (<czca@...>) related a moving experience
> concerning a non-Jew and Yom Kippur.  I had a somewhat similar experience
> this year. 
> A non-Jewish former co-worker with whom I still have occasional
> professional contacts, after wishing me a Happy New Year, mentioned that I
> had explained to him many years ago what Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are
> all about.  As a result, he has made it a practice to engage in a personal
> ethical and spiritual self-assessment around the time of Yom Kippur. 

This would seem to be entirely appropriate. After all, do we not say
in the "Unesaneh Tokef" prayer that everyone in the world comes
before the Almighty for judgement?

Stephen Phillips


End of Volume 15 Issue 82