Volume 16 Number 37
                       Produced: Mon Nov  7 12:33:41 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A Reading on Modern Orthodoxy
         [Eric Jaron Stieglitz]
Israeli Army
         ["Sol Stokar"]
k'li sheni
         [Danny Skaist]
         [Robert Braun]
Modern/Centrist Orthodoxy
         [Steve Bailey]
         [Finley Shapiro]
Relationships between Husband and Wife
         [Eli Turkel]
Repeating Words
         [Elie Rosenfeld]
Sifrei Torah - New vs. Used
         [Warren Burstein]


From: Eric Jaron Stieglitz <ephraim@...>
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 02:09:30 -0500
Subject: A Reading on Modern Orthodoxy

  Regarding the debate over Modern Orthodoxy and the definitions of it,
I think some people might be interested in the following article:

	Journal: Tradition, vol. 23, no. 4 (summer 1988), pages 47-53
	Title: Modern Orthodoxy: Crisis and Solution
	Author: Rabbi Shmuel Singer

  In the article, Rabbi Singer discusses some of the problems facing
Mordern Orthodoxy, while still maintaining that Modern Orthodoxy has many
legitimate points. Among the topics discussed are the lack of Torah Study
among many people who identify themselves as Modern Orthodox, and the
importance of secular education to complement a Jewish education.

Eric Jaron Stieglitz    <ephraim@...>
Home: (212) 853-6771            Assistant Systems Manager at the
Work: (212) 854-6020            Center for Telecommunications Research
Fax : (212) 854-2497 (preferred)     (212) 316-9068 (secondary fax)


From: "Sol Stokar" <sol@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:13:48 +0200
Subject: Israeli Army

In m-j Volume 16 Number 26, Melech Press wrote
>  Dr. Turkel is probably correct in stating that universal army service
>  in Israel was not primarily motivated by a desire to destroy the Torah-
>  observant community.  At the same time there is much evidence that such
>  destruction of observance was and still is a major goal of the leftist
>  forces in the State in the same way that other agencies of the state are
>  used in the tragic "kulturkampf" that still persists.  If this were not
>  so, why then did Dr. Turkel find serving in the army such a challenge?
>  In a religious state this would hardly be the case.

Without commenting on the issue under discussion, I'd like to add
parenthetically that Dr. Press has probably misunderstood Dr. Turkel. From my
own personal experience, the "challenge" of serving in the Israeli army has
nothing to do with anyone's desire to interfere with my Shabbat observance,
whether intentionally or not. The "challange" is simply how to maintain the
correct level of Shabbat observance in an environment fraught with difficult
halachic questions. Much of the existing halachic literature on the subject
does not relate directly to the specific questions that arise every Shabbat,
and the Torah observant soldier is forced to make all sorts of halachic
decisions on his (or her) own, often on the spot. Anyone who has ever spent a
Shabbat or holiday on a small border outpost is familiar with these problems.

Dr. Saul Stokar
Elscint MRI Physics Department
Tirat HaCarmel, Israel
Phone: (972)-4-579-217	Fax: (972)-4-575-593


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 16:17 IST
Subject: k'li sheni

>- Lori Dicker
>                                   What we learned was that pouring from
>a k'li sheni over instant tea or coffee is not permitted because as the
>first few drops of water hit the tea/coffee in the bottom of the cup, a
>cool liquid is formed, and more hot water poured over this mixture is
>like heating (re-heating, actually) the cool liquid, which is also not
>permitted (i'm not sure how the s'fardim hold on this).  But instant tea

[k'li = container, k'li sheni = 2nd container, created by POURING from a
kli rishon, k'li rishon = 1st container i.e. container on the fire]

How did you ever get water into the k'li sheni ?

Since the first drop in is "water in a k'li sheni".  Water in a k'li
sheni by definition is cooler then water in a k'li rishon (the k'li
absorbs heat just like the tea/coffee).

The second drop is pouring water from a k'li rishon onto cooled water in
a k'li sheni, which is "heating" from a k'li rishon, a process which is

So how did you ever get water into the k'li sheni ?



From: <REB@...> (Robert Braun)
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 1994 08:13:39 -0800
Subject: Languages

Coming late into the discussion of Sam Juni's comment that English is
more expressive than Hebrew or Yiddish, I think that depends entirely on
whether the knowledge of writer/speaker/reader of that language.  Each
language has untranslatable words, as well as expressions which are
unique and can only be expressed in another native expression.  Given
the wealth of literature and poetry in Yiddish (Singer, to name one) and
Hebrew (Agnon, to name another), I don't believe we can accurately
suggest that Hebrew or Yiddish lacks depth of expression.

I wonder if Dr. Juni would make the same comment concerning French,
Russian or Japanese, each of which contain words and phrases which are
extremely rich and cannot effectively be translated into English (or any
other language).


From: <RSRH@...> (Steve Bailey)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 02:27:49 -0500
Subject: Modern/Centrist Orthodoxy

My son Jay challenged me to enter the dialogue about modern Orthodoxy.
Posters (D. Khaikin, A. Berger, A. Blaut, C. Hall, et. al.) ask about the
difference between Modern and Centrist as well as the fundamental question of
"What is Modern/Centrist orthodoxy, anyway?"
As for the difference, Rabbi N. Lamm dealt with the issue directly some years
ago and noted that "modern" implied some sense of rejection of the past or of
the chain of tradition. Since this is a misperception, he posited the term
"centrist" instead, which implied a notion of being to the left of charedi
(which promotes rejection and insulation as a way of preserving Judaism) and
to the right of "liberal" orthodox (which promotes relatively radical reform
within orthodoxy as a way of preserving Judaism). Centrist orthodoxy,
therefore, would imply Judaism (read halachik lifestyle) which is tied to the
tradition, but not in a way which rejects the present (except in moral areas
which are in conflict with halacha).
  Personally, I prefer the term that Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch used in the
last century,  "Neo-orthodoxy", defining the requirement to fulfil our
obligation to the covenant". From his writings, this means: a) a "new"
approach to applying the principles of Torah in contemporary society, based
on an understanding of Tanach and Talmud,  such that Torah learning and
observance are sophisticated, influential and meaningful to those who observe
as well as to the non-observant who see observant Jews as models of Judaism;
b) enhancing one's intellectual, aesthetic and spiritual life with the arts,
sciences and literature of society, which enhances that which Torah teaches,
rather than insulating oneself from culture which restricts one's
appreciation of nature and human creativity (which -- along with Torah -- are
the creations of the Creator); and c) being a "mensch" in relationship with
others, so that we are moral and ethical models to those with whom we come
into contact, thus fulfilling our mission of being a moral model to
civilization. This precludes isolating ourselves from and/or rejecting those
outside the observant community in which we live.
  This may serve as a brief sketch of Neo-orthodoxy, which should elicit
responses that will require me to present a more elaborate  explanation of
concepts. I'll welcome the opportunity. 

Steve Bailey
practicing Neo-orthodoxy in Los Angeles


From: Finley Shapiro <Finley_Shapiro@...>
Date: 6 Nov 1994 10:58:56 U
Subject: Musicians

Claire Austin wrote:
> Do you think that if Yitzhak Perlman decided to become shomer Shabbos
> that this would be the end of his musical career?  I am quite certain
> that his career would continue to flourish.

This is undoubtedly true.  However, we should remember two things.

1) Very, very few violinists have the skills of Yitzhak Perlman.  He has
enough invitations to perform as much as he wants to, and he can command
a high enough fee for the performances and recordings he chooses to do
that he can easily earn a living without the performances he turns down.
Most professional violinists work in large or small orchestras, and need
to conform to the schedule of the orchestra to hold their jobs.

2) I do not know if Yitzhak Perlman is shomer Shabbat or not, or whether
he was when he was younger.  If he was not, it seems very likely that he
did work on Shabbat to advance his career in the early stages, and
probably felt the need to, even though now he does not have to if he
does not want to.

Finley Shapiro


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 11:47:25 +0200
Subject: Relationships between Husband and Wife

     There has been a lot of discussion lately of wife beating. While
this is a serious problem nevertheless I don't think it is a wide spread
problem in most religious homes. However, I would think that most wives
are more concerned about receiving help from their husbands.

     I recently heard a shiur from Rav Zilberstein (rav of Ramat
Elchanan in Bnei Brak) about the Torah obligations between husband and
wife. One point that he stressed several times is that while the kids
are killing each other and there is mayhem in the house it is not
appropriate for the husband to come home and demand supper and say that
it is one of the obligations of wife to serve her husband. He mentioned
several times that one must use common sense and not just quote Shulchan
Arukh. I assume he mentioned this over and over because it is a real
     I remember several years ago reading a letter to the editor from
the wife of a kollel student who complained bitterly that she couldn't
cope and whenever she needed help her husband was running to some
shiur. One of my friends told me that he was always impressed how Rav
Lichtenstein would bring his kids to school and attend parent-teacher
meetings etc.  I think too many of the "gedolim" stories stress how they
learned day and night and had nothing to do with bringing up the kids in
the house - that was the mother's job. They only noticed they had
children when the boys were old enough to learn.
      In one of the stories about Rav Moshe Feinstein they mention how
he used to walk around the lower east side with his wife. Other people
complained that it was not appropriate for a gadol to be seen chatting
with his wife and she should be a step behind him. He basically answered
that he acted the way he thought was appropriate.



From: <er@...> (Elie Rosenfeld)
Date: 31 Oct 1994  14:25 EST
Subject: Repeating Words

In Vol 16 No 19, Jules Reichel writes:

>I think that his anger is misplaced. When one is little, sitting next to 
>your father and listening and thinking and touching his tallit is prayer.
>As we grow the words, the rhythms, the sound, the movement, the sights, all
>become part of prayer. A niggun with no words is prayer. It's not, of course,
>all the same thing. Prayer has dimensions just like space. As we age we
>achieve competence but pay for it with impatience and a loss of newness.
>Gates start to close and we lose the dimensionality of prayer and indeed of

I resonate to the emotional content of this post.  I too grew up with a
strong feel for the rhythms, the sound, the music of tefila.  My father
is an accomplished ba'al tefila [small "c" chazan] who has been ba'al musaf
on Yomim Noraim [the High Holidays] since before I was born, and also has
read the Torah weekly for about 45 years.  Listening to his tefila as a
child, with rapt attention to every nuance, gave me a great appreciation
for the texture and flavor of tefila, as well as the words.

However... I must still respectfully disagree with Mr. Reichel's conclusion.  
Repeating words does nothing to enhance the beauty of tefila.  Rather, as I
opined previously, it detracts from that beauty by rendering the words
almost moot.  A proper tune for a tefila should enhance the words, adding
emphasis at dramatic moments, taking on a hushed tone where appropriate,
becoming plaintive when sad thoughts are expressed.  By contrast, repetition
of words - which invariably is done based on meter and verse length rather
than content - rips apart the marriage of tune and words which a good ba'al
tefila should strive to bring together.

Incidently, repetition in chazaras ha'shatz [chazan's repetition of Amidah]
is the worst offender here, and not only because of halachik concerns.  As
opposed to other areas of the davening such as Hallel where there is more
leeway to mix-and-match tunes, the Amidah for each occasion has a particular
Nusach [official tune].  To me, nothing can substitute for the beauty and
appropriateness of the Nusach.  It gives the listener a musical, emotional
feel for what day it is, be it Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Yom Kippur.  And the
tunes that involve repitition are nearly always _not_ the Nusach tune.

Elie Rosenfeld


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 07:33:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Sifrei Torah - New vs. Used

If everyone endevors to buy new Sifrei Torah, what is to become of the
old ones?

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


End of Volume 16 Issue 37