Volume 16 Number 64
                       Produced: Sat Nov 19 20:26:29 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Age of Rivka at the Well
         [Fivel Smiles]
Creation and Dinosaurs
         [Howard Reich]
         [Josh Backon]
Gratefulness To Those in the Army
         [Esther R Posen]
Hotel Keys
Israeli Army
         [Arnold Lustiger]
Lubavitch Source for Earth Age
         [Mechy Frankel]
         [Zvi Weiss]
Rivka's Age
         [Janice Gelb]
         [Josh Abelson]
Source for Age of Earth
         [Moishe Kimelman]


From: <FSmiles@...> (Fivel Smiles)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 15:40:02 -0500
Subject: Age of Rivka at the Well

There is at least one other opinion on the age of Rivka emanu ( our
foremother ) at the well.  Daas Zekanim mebalay Tosfos ( from the same
group who wrote tosfos in shas ) They say in Beraysheet ( Gneisis )
25:20 ( beginning of Toldos ) Rivka was 14 at well and when she got

Here is the math.

First they bring a medrash that Kehat, Rivka and ben Azi all lived to the age
of 133 years.
If you say rivka emanu was only 3 at the well then she was 23 when
Yaakov avinu ( our forefather ) was born. Yaakov avinu was 63 when
Yitshak avinu blessed him as rashi says ( Genisis 27:2 ).
14 years were spent by Yaakov avinu in yeshiva of Aver (school of Aver ) 
20 years he worked for Lavan
2 years on the road to get home.
Then Rivka emanu dies.
That makes 23 + 63 + 14 +20 +2 = 122 which leaves you eleven years short.
So tosfos concludes that Rivka emanu was actually 14 when so was married !!!
Note :If you ever want a sharp explanation look in the Daas Zekanim mebalay
Tosfos in the standard Mikraos Gedolos 
Note : West of Mobile, Alabama off the Interstate 10 , one can take a exit to
Bellingath Gardens, a beautiful garden full of flowers.  There in the Gardens
you will will found a fountain.  On the fountain you will see a  cast metal
image of a young lady giving a man water at a well.  Under the picture is
quoted the story of Rivka at the well.  They even note chapter and verse from
Fivel Smiles


From: Howard Reich <0006572811@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 13:48 EST
Subject: Creation and Dinosaurs

     Rabbi Twerski's carefully reasoned hypothesis that the dinosaurs 
may have been the Taninim Hagedolim (sea giants) in Genesis 1:21 is 
further supported by the Torah's omission of the phrase, VaHee Chein 
(and it was so) as was used throughout the rest of Maase Breishis (the 
biblical account of creation), which suggests that the Taninim 
Hagedolim did not survive for a (relatively) great length of time.

          Howard Reich (<hreich@...>)


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Sat,  19 Nov 94 18:33 +0200
Subject: RE: Dinosaurs

Chaim Twerski mentioned the possibility that TANIN could mean dinosaur.
In BRESHIT RABBAH 3:7) we read that Hashem created worlds and destroyed
them. The TIFERET YISRAEL (Rav Yisrael Lifshutz) in his commentary DROSH
OHR HACHAIM (in the Yachin U'Boaz Mishnayot at the end of Sanhedrin) says
that the meaning of TOHU VA'VOHU is the destruction of *prior* worlds. He
even claimed that the dinosaur relics found in his generation (about 100
years ago) were proof of this Ma'amar Chazal. The MA'HARSHAM (Rav Shalom
Schwadron, a great POSEK of the prior generation) also agreed with this
position (TCHELET MORDECHAI on Breshit).

Shavua Tov



From: <eposen@...> (Esther R Posen)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 10:20:00 -0500
Subject: Gratefulness To Those in the Army

Clearly the "army" issue is a divisive issue between Chareidim and
non-Chareidim in Israel.  (Anywhere else it is an academic issue, not a
life and death issue.)  Regardless of my (academic) position on the
issue, it pains me to think that an attitude of "not being grateful" for
the people who do serve in the army exists or is thought to exist.  The
question of whether chareidi yeshiva students should serve in the army
is quite separate and apart from the question of whether we need to feel
grateful to those who risk their life and limb to defend Israel.



From: <Robert_Rubinoff@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 13:50:40 EST
Subject: Hotel Keys

> >From: Stephen Irwin Weiss <sweiss@...>
> As for me, my p'sak remains do NOT use any electric/magnetic/optical key
> on Shabbat.
> Maybe Tzomet will one day make our lives easier. Kol Hakavod to their
> efforts. Meantime, teh best thing to do is ask ythe hotel management to
> allow yo to manually lock your door. In some hotels this option is still
> available IF YOU ASK. Otherwise choose a different hotel!

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure there are some places where *all* the
hotels use electronic keys only.  If that's not the case yet, it
certainly will be the case in the near future.  (I suppose there will
always be some real run-down places that don't want to spend the money
to install electronic keys -- but I'm not sure it would be safe to stay
in those sorts of motels.)

So that leaves the question -- what do you do if you can't find a hotel
with "regular" room keys?  Tzomet may solve the problem in Israel, but I
doubt hotels in any other country will use their solution.



From: <alustig@...> (Arnold Lustiger)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 10:45:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Israeli Army

>     Shaul Wallach writes:
>>> A Haredi spokesman told me once that if the army were run according to
>>> halacha, then there would be no objection to serving whenever halacha
>>> should require it.

Eli Turkel responds:
>    I read this statement a few minutes after I heard on the radio that 3
>soldiers in reserves were killed by terrorists near Gaza. Let me make it
>very clear: when Shaul talks about serving when halacha requires it this means
>that the charedim will sit in the comfort of their homes while someone takes
>all the risks. As my second son has just started Hesder yeshiva I resent this
>enormously. Both my sons have received a fine Torah education in their
>respective hesder yeshivas while at the same time serving in the army.
>Everyone should realize that while the son (or husband) is in the army then
>the mothers (wives) do not really sleep well for several years especially
>when someone is in Gaza or Lebanon. I find it horrible that one cannot even
>be grateful to those that have given their lives to save the land of Israel.

Eli has touched on a subject that resonates very strongly with me. As an
American, I feel guilty not making the sacrifice that Eli and his family
makes, putting the lives of sons on the line in the defense of
Israel. But at least I feel hakarat hatov for those who do. In the
overall chareidi community, this hakarat hatov simply does not exist.

Moshe Rabeinu could not initiate the plague of blood because of hakarat
hatov to the water, a non-living entity. Avraham Avinu had monumental
hakarat hatov to Lot, an idolator who explicitly rejected G-d, for
something as trivial as not revealing Sarah's true relationship with
Avraham to Pharoah. The pure venom (I can't put it any other way) that I
have seen in the Israeli chareidi Yeshiva community towards the Israeli
army, who after all continually protect their lives, is a distortion of
what Yiddishkeit is.

I honestly hope that I can be proven wrong. I hope that those on the
list in the Israeli Hareidi community can correct my sweeping accusation
here. I truly would like to see a statement from R. Shach, an article in
Yated Ne'eman, anything that disputes this assertion. Publicizing such a
statement will cause a great Kiddush Hashem and repair a major rift in
Klal Yisrael.

Arnie Lustiger


From: Mechy Frankel <frankel@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:29:11 EST
Subject: Lubavitch Source for Earth Age

Someone asked for a reference to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's z"l
appreciation of the Day of Beraishis comprising a literal 24 hr period.
One relevant reference can be found in the book "Challenge: Torah Views
on Science and Its Problems: published by Feldheim, 1978, ed. by Carmel
and Domb, in conjunction with The Association of Orthodox Jewish
Scientists. It includes a published letter of the Rebbe z"l entitled "A
Letter on Science and Judaism" (or something like that.) It actually
does not discuss the notion that the Day is 24 hours directly, instead
it is an explicit exposition of the Rebbe's perspective that the total
age of the earth is literally 5722 years (at the time he was writing),
from which you may infer his appreciation that the day was 24 hours - or
at least pretty short. He responds there quite eloquently to all the
obvious questions of fossils and whatnot and why should God have done
such a peculiar thing. The interested reader would be advised to get the
force of the Rebbe's arguments directly.

Mechy Frankel                                       W: (703) 325-1277
<frankel@...>		                  H: (301) 593-3949		


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:19:01 -0500
Subject: Rebecca....

Comments re Mitchel Berger's analysis

1. If we *are* wrrying about the status of Nidda, then even a baby girl
   younger than 3 years of age *could* be a Nidda.  If we are not worrying
   about Nidda, then most girls under the age of 12 would not be likely to
   be Nidda.  The rules of Negi'a are normally framed in terms of the pro-
   hibitions associated with Nidda.
2. There is no record of Yitzcahk kissing Rebecca (Jacob kissed Rachel) in the
   Chumash -- at least before they are married.
3. A kohen is prohibited from marrying a woman who is a "zonah" -- which in-
   cludes one who has had relations with a non-Jewish man.  As the Torah
   explicitly states that Rebecca was a "virgin and no man 'knew' her", it is
   clear that she would not have the status of Zonah.  Note that a regular
   Kohen *is * allowed to marry a non-virgin even if she was willfully
   promiscuous before marriage.  The prohibition in terms of rape applies
   *after* she is married to the Kohen.....
4. The Commentaries state that Isaac was treated like a "Korban" -- hence not
   allowed to leave Israel.  Would Mr. Berger please provide a reference that
   Isaac was considered a Kohen?

According to Rashi, I beleive, Isaac married Rebecca at the age of three
because that was the earliest age at which he could do so..... i.e., it was
not possible to marry Rebecca when she was younger than 3.



From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:56:11 +0800
Subject: Rivka's Age

Many people have provided math to answer Cheryl Hall's question about
Rivka's supposedly being three years old when she married Isaac. However,
so far I don't believe I've seen anyone explain the seeming
contradiction between the math used to figure out Isaac and Rivka's
respective ages and the story in Chayye Sara that has Rivka carrying a
jug, watering animals, and offering hospitality to Eliezer, which is
how he decides she's the girl for Isaac. She must have been an awfully
strong and very mature three-year-old!

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address. 


From: <JOABELSON@...> (Josh Abelson)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Roles

Re David Charlop's Comment on roles:

	While I do not disagree with what you write (in fact, I tend to 
agree with it), there is another strong arguement that can be made.  
Childbirth, even today, is dangerous (statistically it is now safer to 
have an abortion than to give birth).  The Torah does not command us to 
place our lives in danger, and to command women to have children would do 
just that.


From: <kimel@...> (Moishe Kimelman)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:38:26 +1100
Subject: Source for Age of Earth

A friend pointed out to me that the Ramban in explaining the third verse of 
the Torah says (section starting "Vayehi":

Know that the days that are mentioned in the story of creation, were actual 
days in the creation of Heaven and Earth, consisting of hours and minutes. 
And there were six, like the six days of action, in line with the simple 
explanation of the passuk.

Now, does anybody have a Torah SOURCE (not something that can be
reconciled with the Torah) to show that the six days are not literal?


End of Volume 16 Issue 64