Volume 17 Number 12
                       Produced: Thu Dec  8 13:26:01 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - Bishul Akum article in Archives
         [Avi Feldblum]
Administrivia - Mailing List Rules Proposal
         [Avi Feldblum]
Chanuka nerot on Shabbat
         [Lorri Lewis]
Chanukah on Fri/Sat night
         [Jonathan Katz]
Kashrus Organizations
         [Aryeh Blaut]
oil chanukia
         [Mimi Zohar]
Playing With Fire (Bishul Akum)
         [Rabbi Yaakov Luban]
Preparing Wicks for Lighting
         [Danny Skaist]
Wicks for Oil Hanukiot
         [David A. Kessler]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 13:16:45 -0500
Subject: Administrivia - Bishul Akum article in Archives

A few issues ago, someone mentioned that there was an Article in Jewish
Action on the Topic of Bishul Akum. For those that remember, a longer
while back, someone on the list had asked about the OU's policy
concerning Bishul Akum. Well, I had taken that question to rabbi Luban,
who is the senior Rabbinic coordinator of the OU's Kashrut division, and
he told me at the time that he could not give me a few line answer, but
it was a good point to clarify. So he wrote the article for Jewish
Action (the OU magazine) and then got the magazine's permission to post
it to the mail-jewish Archives. So it is there now. The email command to
retrieve the article (give me a few hours to make sure I have all the
index files updated, I can't seem to telnet over right now) is:

	get mail-jewish bishul.txt

and is in the Special_Topics directory for ftp, gopher and WWW (which
should be working currently)

Rabbi Luban also asks that if you have any other Kashrut topics that you
would like to see an article about to please send me them by email and I
will forward them to him. He is interested in knowing what people would
like to know more about. Of course, once the article appears in Jewish
Action, we will get a copy here on the mail-jewish archives. 

He also has several old articles that have appeared in Jewish Action
that we can put in the archives, but unlike the current article that he
had available in electronic form, these are only available in hard
copy. If there is anyone who would like to take the hard copy and scan
it in and then make sure it scanned correctly, we could put those
articles up as well.

One note, as the article was in Word format that I converted to text, it
could use some more fixing of the format. I decided to get it to the
point that I felt it was readable, put it up and ask if anyone on the
list would like to try and "pretty" up the formating. I can also put up
the .doc file if people think that would be useful.

A short summary of the article follows in this issue.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:15:14 -0500
Subject: Administrivia - Mailing List Rules Proposal

I would like to thank all of you who send me responses to the issue of
the growing volume of mail-jewish. I have read them all carefully, and
will upload a file that basically has your comments with name, address
etc and any other notes you may have included stripped off, so it is
available to anyone to preuse. 

The main points I came away with was that the large majority did not
want to see very long articles on the list on a regular basis, but did
say that there were a few times that they did want to see them. So there
was a feeling for post limits, but for the limits to be
"soft". i.e. they can be violated for "good" articles.

There was also a clear feeling from several of you that there were a few
posters who seemed to be overwhelming the group, and that some form of
maximum number of postings per week for a given poster was a good
idea. Others mentioned that even if it is a good idea, the overhead to
check on it may be to high.

Based on the above, as well as my having given this a great deal of
thought, I will propose the following:

All articles less than 100 lines in length will be put into the
mail-jewish article queue. Within that queue, articles of 25 lines or
less will have higher priority.

In general, articles over 200 lines in length will go to archives, with
a 25 line max executive summary for posting to mail-jewish, along with
the exact email command (I will supply that) to retrieve the article. In
addition, I propose (if there is interest) a sub-mailing list (mj-long?)
where the long articles will be sent out on (so those that want
everything will not have to request each one specifically).

We now have articles between 100 and 200 lines, plus the exceptional of
the 200+ line articles. What I propose here is as follows: 

a) I recommend that they also go into the archive area with a summary to
the main list.
b) If you think that the article is of significant importance and should
go to the entire list, you can request so when you send it to me.
c) I would like to re-establish the mail-jewish "editorial board" that I
proposed over a year ago, but has been inactive largely due to my not
having defined what it should be. One significant activity of the board
will be helping make decisions about long articles.
d) I will send the 100+ or 200+ line submission to the board, along with
any recommendation I may have. The board will have (say) 2-3 days to
reply whether they think it should go to the list or to archive/mj-long.
For 100-200 line articles, either majority or 2/3 vote to put in list,
200+ line articles will require 3/4 vote yes (details can be worked
e) I will follow the boards recommendations on how the article will
appear, main list or archive/mj-long

Note: In this scenerio, if you keep your posting shorter, it is more
likely to go out quicker. If you have a longer posting to make, the
chances are that only a small fraction of the list really will read
it. If you give a good summary and have it archived, it is actually more
likely that it will be read ( and reread later when people do indexes of
the archives) by putting it into the archives. If it goes to the board,
I would assume that there will be a three day delay, on average, for the
posting to go out, if it goes out on the list. If not, and you have not
supplied a summary in advance, add to that delay the time to send the
decision back to you and to get your summary.

One thing that this does not yet address is multiple postings from a
single poster. My policy here, which I have sort of been following but
never in a formal way, is that once one posting from any given
individual goes out in one day, then s/he goes to the "back of the
queue" for the rest of the day. Now if someone has a few good postings,
especially on different topics, I will often send out two or rarely even
three postings from one person on one day. But if you just take a 200+
posting and break it up into three 70+ line postings, you should assume
that it will take at least three days to go out.

OK, this is now an "official" Request For Comments on this proposal. It
is also an advance call for people who would be interested in being on
the "editorial board", at least for this purpose. I will give this a two
week time frame for replies, at which time I will report back to you
with a decision on how we go. 

I am hopeful that something along the above lines will meet the needs of
those for whom the volume is getting too high, along with those that
want and desire the more elaborate, and often well thought out and
written, submissions that tend to the longer side.


From: <lorrin@...> (Lorri Lewis)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 22:00:34 +0500
Subject: Chanuka nerot on Shabbat

A success story on getting an oil burning chanukiah to really burn, and
burn long enough.  The big issue is getting any chanukiah to burn long
enough on Shabbat.

We use the ready made wicks sold in matchbox looking boxes sold in
Jewish book stores--pitilim.  In a Chanukiah made for oil we float the
little cork floaters right on the oil, not using the covers that come
with the chanukiah.  Also we take matching glasses (anything from shot
glasses to stemware) fill half way with water, put oil on top, then
float the cork and wick.  A votive candle can act as the Shamash, since
the oil will usually burn longer than a Shabbat candle.

My family lit 5 such chanukiot on Friday evening that burned for over 4

Chanukah Sameach! 
Lorri Grashin Lewis


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 1994 00:08:04 EST
Subject: Chanukah on Fri/Sat night

Someone asked me an interesting question this past Chanukah and we debated
the answer for a while but couldn't find the real answer:
what is the halacha for using Chanukah candles for Shabbat candles
or for havdala candles?
For Shabbat, one could light the menorah (with b'rachot), then cover the
eyes, make the Shabbos b'racha, and then look at the shammash (I assume that
according to everyone it is prohibited to use the menorah candles THEMSELVES
as shobbos candles, so one could, conceivably use the shamash instead).
For havdala, one could make havdala on the shamash (which could certainly be
multi-wicked) and then proceed to make the chanukah b'rachot and light
the menorah.
Are either of these halachically allowed?

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 241C
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Aryeh Blaut <ny000592@...>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 94 20:35:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Kashrus Organizations

>>From: <david@...> (David Charlap)

With the exception of the editorial (Groups that generally accept/don't 
accept), Kashrus Magazine publishes this list once a year.  One should 
take this list to her/his LCR (Local Compitant Rabbi) and get his 

IMHO, I don't think that most of us can give enough accurate information 
to make such statements.

Aryeh Blaut


From: <zohar@...> (Mimi Zohar)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 94 12:15:16 EST
Subject: oil chanukia

My son received an oil chanukia this year.  The glasses got burn stains
on them.  Does anyone have suggestions on how to remove the burn stains?
Or do you simply buy replacements each year?




From: Rabbi Yaakov Luban <feldblum@...>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 13:19:58 -0500
Subject: Playing With Fire (Bishul Akum)

[The following is a text copy of the article "PLAYING WITH FIRE" By
Rabbi Yaakov Luban, Senior Rabbinic Coordinator of the Orthodox Union
Kashrut division. This article appeared in the November 1994 issue of
Jewish Action, and appears here with the permission of the magazine. I
would like to thank Rabbi Luban and Jewish Action for submitting this
article to the mail-jewish archives. Avi Feldblum, Moderator]


      Here is a short quiz of ten questions to test your knowledge of
some of the finer points of kashruth: All the questions have one answer
alluded to by the title of this article.

1. What kashruth problem may be obviated by using a touch tone phone?
2. Contemporary Rabbonim dispute the use of a light bulb to solve which
kashruth concern? 
3. Of what particular interest is it to the Jewish community what the
Queen or King of England serves at royal dinners?
4. Why is MTBY printed on some cans of OU tuna fish?
5. What situation became exacerbated by the introduction of stoves with
electronic ignitions?
6. How can kosher food be rendered non-kosher without adding a single
7. What law of kashruth was instituted to prevent intermarriage?
8. What halacha of kashruth is often of greater concern when husband and
wife both work?
9. Sephardim and Ashkenazim diagree whether a wood chip can be used to
resolve what issue?
10. What relevant law of kashruth is unknown to many people?

   If you knew that the answer to these questions was bishul akum,
congratulations!  You have just won first prize in the OU kashruth bee,
and you are eligible to win the grand prize (an extended stay in olam
haba, after 120 years).  If you did not know the answer, you may wish to
read on, to help secure your share of the grand prize as well.

[Full article is archived in the Special_Topics section of the
mail-jewish archives on Shamash under the name bishul.txt. To get this
article be email, send the message:

	get mail-jewish bishul.txt

to:  <listproc@...>


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:31 IST
Subject: Preparing Wicks for Lighting

>David Kramer
>This year I graduated to an oil Chanukia and would solicit the learned
>cyber-crowd for advice on the best types of wicks and oil holders.  I
>used a floating wick but found it very difficult to light without
>dripping wax from the Shamash all over.  The last days, I got smart

A wick that has been lit and put out will light faster.  I do that to my
hanuka wicks on erev shabbat because I really can't spare the time (don't
try it on a dry wick, it will just burn up.)

Also according to kabbala a husband has the responsibility to "pre-burn"
his wifes shabbat wicks to make lighting easier.  And of course
according to the mishna "bameh madlikin" putting out a wick is an
"improvement", and therefore not permitted on shabbat.

However I have seen somewhere that one should use "new" wicks every
night of hanukah.  Does anybody know anything about that ?



From: David A. Kessler <kessler@...>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:41:58 +0000
Subject: Wicks for Oil Hanukiot

I have been using pipe cleaners, with fair success, for many
years now.  The cotton exterior is the wick and the metal provides
support so the wick stands straight.
David Kessler
Bar-Ilan Univ.


End of Volume 17 Issue 12