Volume 17 Number 40
Produced: Wed Dec 21 9:50:41 1994
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Changing pronunciation
[Jeremy Lebrett]
Cohen-Marriage
[Josh Backon]
college for yeshiva bocher?
[David Kramer]
Jews entering a church (not to worship)
[Naomy Graetz]
Medical School as bitul Torah
[Shmuel Weidberg]
Military Training
[Eli Turkel]
saving the life of a non-Jew on Shabbat
[Warren Burstein]
Sepharadi and Ashkenazi Pronunciations
[Michael Shimshoni]
Talmid Hakham?
[Shaul Wallach]
TORAH-FORUM (2)
[Nicolas Rebibo, Avi Feldblum]
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From: Jeremy Lebrett <J_LEBRETT%<REC@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 04:01:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Changing pronunciation
Whilst making the switch from one Havarah (pronunciation) to another
what happens to those D'Oraisa mitzvos like Shema and Birkas
Hamozon? Is one yozai with a mixed/incorrect renditioning? This is
of course assuming that you are yotzai at all if reading in other
than one's mother (or father) tongue.
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From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 7:53 +0200
Subject: RE: Cohen-Marriage
Doni Zivotofsky asked for further details on the recent case of a Jewish
woman being prohibited by the local BEIT DIN from marrying a Cohen because
of something her ancestors did 2500 years ago. This woman came from the
Haddad family originally from Djerba in Tunisia. During the period of the
Bayit Rishon (!!!) Cohanim (ancestors of this woman) living there became
a CHALLAL (one of them married a woman who was divorced). Thus their
entire family line had the stigma of CHALLAL. The (Sefardi) AV BEIT DIN
happened to be from Tunisia and refused to allow this woman to marry a Cohen.
Apropos :-) In the Haredi papers here last week there was an article on
a rare ceremony of PETTER CHAMOR (redeeming the firstborn of a mule). The
mule (donkey ?) lived on the outdoor porch of one of the Rashei Yeshivot
of Ponevitz. At the ceremony, the mule was covered with a fancy embroidered
white cloth and stood on the dais in front of all the rebbeim.
Only in Israel !
Josh
<backon@...>
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From: David Kramer <davidk@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 07:39:52 -0700 (IST)
Subject: Re: college for yeshiva bocher?
>From: Simone Shapiro <simone@...>
> I'm looking for colleges which have support systems for a yeshiva
> bocher, i.e., a frum chevra, a kosher meal plan, boys only dorms, daily,
> shabbes, and yom tov services, etc.
There is a very good College in NY which has all the things you are
looking for plus a very active bais medrash and world class rabaiim -
it's called Yeshiva University .
[ David H. Kramer | E-MAIL: <davidk@...> ]
[ Motorola Communications Israel Ltd. | Phone: (972-3) 565-8638 Fax: 9507 ]
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From: Naomy Graetz <graetz@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 08:32:39 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Re: Jews entering a church (not to worship)
A student of mine has a query: what are the sources on a Jew not being
allowed to enter a church. She was party to an embarrassing situation,
when as part of a group, a young woman refused to enter a church in
Jerusalem (the Ratisbonne). The rest of the class entered and her friend
stayed outside. My student would like some sources that she can study
with her friend: both pro and con if possible.
Naomi Graetz
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From: Shmuel Weidberg <shmuel@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 23:51:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Medical School as bitul Torah
>From: <goldberg@...> (Joel Goldberg)
> It seems to me that then the requirement to learn how to swim only applies
> when you find yourself in the water. Yet we know that a father is required
> to teach his sons how to swim.
Perhaps there is a difference between self preservation and preservation
of other people. A father is required to teach his son how to swim in
order to save him from a fairly common danger, so that he will be able
to fulfill the mitzva of 'Ushmartem es nafshoseichem' (And you shall
guard your soul). It not a mitzva, however, to teach him how to save
someone else.
<--Shmuel-Weidberg--shmuel@...>
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From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 08:39:53 +0200
Subject: Military Training
Shaul wallach writes
>> Finally, even if we adopt the view that Talmidei Hakhamim are required
>> to serve in a Milhemet Mizwa, we can still argue as R. Zvi Yehuda Kook ZS"L
>> did and say that they should serve only when they are actually needed.
According to this they should undergo some basic training so they will
know something if they are needed.
<turkel@...>
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From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 17:07:10 GMT
Subject: saving the life of a non-Jew on Shabbat
We've discussed this before, I hope not to repeat the entire
discussion. As I recall, one saves the life of a non-Jew on Shabbat
"mipnei darchei shalom". However, I found the following on another
mailing list.
Israel Shahak, the author of the book from which the following is
paraphrased (not by me), is certainly no friend of Torah, nor is the
person who did the paraphrasing. However, the statements he makes
about the decision of the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem seem to
contradict what I know of halacha.
Some possibilities that come to mind are
1) The halacha is that one should save the life of a non-Jew on
Shabbat, and it's inconceivable that a Beit Din would have ruled
otherwise. Shahak must be wrong. If that is the case, I plan to
criticize this book on the net.
2) I've misunderstood the halacha, or at least it has some exceptions
that I don't know about.
3) There are valid, dissenting opinions.
>he [Shahak] says that he witnessed "an ultra-religious Jew refuse
>to allow his phone to be used on the Sabbath in order to call an
>ambulance for a non-Jew who happened to have collapsed in his Jerusalem
>neighborhood". He says further that he sought an opinion from members
>of the Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem on whether this person's behavior
>was appropriate and, "They answered that [he] had behaved correctly ...
>and backed their statement by referring [Shahak] to a passage in an
>authoritative compendium of Talmudic laws". Shahak says that this was
>reported by him in Ha'aretz at the time and "the story caused a media
>scandal".
>By way of reference, all he says in that chapter is that this
>happened in 1965-6.
|warren@ an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org
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From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 12:16:33 +0200
Subject: Sepharadi and Ashkenazi Pronunciations
Binyomin Segal gave an amusing example on different pronunciations:
>On a non-halachik thought though - I too learned sephardic first. (In fact
>when I learned about the Bris Bein HaB'Sarim I thought it meant the
>covenant between the pieces of flesh, instead of Brit Bein HaB'Tarim)...
That is perhaps odder than Binyomin had meant. After all the B'Tarim
(in Sephardic) are really nothing but "pieces of flesh".
I only hope that nobody will learn anything "deep" from that fact. :-)
Michael Shimshoni
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From: Shaul Wallach <F66204@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 94 21:33:52 IST
Subject: Talmid Hakham?
Zvi Weiss raises the question of what qualifies someone to be a
Talmid Hakham who can be exempt from the army. Rav Kook ZS"L already
pointed to the Shulhan `Arukh (Yore De`a 243:2) for the definition.
It is explained there that anyone who spends all his free time - i.e.
besides that which he needs to work in order to support himself -
learning Torah is a Talmid Hakham and is exempt from taking part in
public works and from paying taxes. Of course, we can ask whether
Rav Kook was correct in applying this to exemption from army service
as well, especially in a Milhemet Mizwa or Hova. But at least we
have some concept of what a Talmid Hakham is. I still think it
follows from this that all the yeshiva students would be considered
Talmidei Hakhamim, as far as the Shulhan `Arukh is concerned.
Of course we are talking here only about Talmidei Hakhamim who
are careful in their observance of the commandments and have Fear of
Heaven, as the next Halacha (ibid 243:3) points out. But who can pass
judgment on them?
Shalom,
Shaul
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From: <nre@...> (Nicolas Rebibo)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 10:23:34 +0100
Subject: Re: TORAH-FORUM
> Torah-Forum is a list founded to stimulate and facilitate discussion of
> traditional Jewish texts and their traditional interpretations. We
> offer Torah-Forum for the sharing of insights and information regarding
> Tanach, Halacha, Talmud, Midrash and Jewish philosophy worldwide.
>
> We would like nothing more than to become an address through which any
> Jew can be put in contact with experts in traditional Jewish thought,
> while offering scholars an "on-line Bais Medrash" - a house of study where
> they will feel comfortable contributing actively to ongoing discussions.
I just cannot understand the aim of this new list. I always considered
mail-jewish as being that "on-line Bais Medrash".
Why having two mailing lists with the same goal (moreover on the same
listproc) ?
I have the feeling that working together to improve mail-jewish is
a better idea than creating a "small" mail-jewish.
Nicolas Rebibo
<rebibo@...>
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From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 09:43:31 -0500
Subject: Re: TORAH-FORUM
Nicolas Rebibo writes:
> > Torah-Forum is a list founded to stimulate and facilitate discussion of
> > traditional Jewish texts and their traditional interpretations. We
> > offer Torah-Forum for the sharing of insights and information regarding
> > Tanach, Halacha, Talmud, Midrash and Jewish philosophy worldwide.
> >
> > We would like nothing more than to become an address through which any
> > Jew can be put in contact with experts in traditional Jewish thought,
> > while offering scholars an "on-line Bais Medrash" - a house of study where
> > they will feel comfortable contributing actively to ongoing discussions.
> I just cannot understand the aim of this new list. I always considered
> mail-jewish as being that "on-line Bais Medrash".
>
> Why having two mailing lists with the same goal (moreover on the same
> listproc) ?
> I have the feeling that working together to improve mail-jewish is
> a better idea than creating a "small" mail-jewish.
I admit that I was a bit surprised at the description of Torah-Forum,
given that Yaacov Menken had spoken with me (or email with me, whatever
the proper termenology should be) about the list before announcing
it. As described above, just reading it cold, it does sound like another
mail-jewish. I have said in the past if other people want to set up
similar lists, I would advertise it here, so I did.
However, let me say what I understood Menken to be setting up. If I have
it incorrect, then I invite Yaacov to correct me.
Torah-Forum is designed as a group of (traditional/right wing) Rabbis
who will answer questions on Judaism from primarily a non-religious /
non-practicing audience who are not well tied in to religious
institutions in their home locations. The hashkafa (philosophic
viewpoint) will be much more uniform, and the focus will not be on
discussions but you ask a question, and then one of this group of Rabbis
will give an answer.
This is how I understood what Yaacov Menken was setting up for
Torah-Forum. I see mail-jewish and mj-chaburah serving different
needs.
mail-jewish is a discussion group of Jewish and halakhic issues where we
invite the full spectrum of Torah committed Jewish views to be
expressed. It is a chance to raise issues and participate in a wide
ranging discussion. Absolute type statements (This is THE jewish way to
do things) are discouraged and generally just make work for me when
people who espouse some OTHER jewish way of doing things respond. So we
can get a bit heated at times, but I believe the expression of views
make it worthwhile.
mj-chaburah, as it starts up, is aimed at a different audience than
Torah-Forum, at least as I understood things. mj-chaburah is aimed at
being more a part of the "shiur" time of the Cyber-Beit-Medrash. Here is
where some serious learning will be taking place, you don't "sit" down
and participate if you have not yet put in a few hours to prepare for
the chaburah. There will be lots of "lurkers" who will be there to learn
from the participants, but I expect the participants to be seriously
involved.
There are likely other portions of the Cyber-Beit-Medrash yet to be
created, but I suspect that mail-jewish, mj-chaburah and Torah-Forum (as
well as the many other "classes" in Menken's Project Genesis portfolio)
will be able comfortably co-exist. However, unlike say 4 or 5 years ago,
when one could belong to ALL the Torah oriented mailing lists, similar
maybe to the time of Avraham, when Ever's Yeshiva and Avraham's Shiur
were all there were, today you probably already cannot keep up with all
the Torah related lists just on Shamash and Jerusalem1, unless that is
all you do all day. Just as you cannot attend every shiur that is
available in the Torah studies world.
Enough of my rambling,
Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net
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End of Volume 17 Issue 40
