Volume 17 Number 43
                       Produced: Fri Dec 23 11:18:28 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Gedaliah Friedenberg]
More on Generational Decline
         [Micha Berger]


From: Gedaliah Friedenberg <gedaliah@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 20:37:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Heckshers

A few recent issues of MJ have suggested compiling lists of recommended
heckshers.  The Detroit Vaad did so 2 years ago.  I submitted it to MJ
back then (although I cannot remember if it was approved).  Here it is

Gedaliah Friedenberg

Because a number of submissions here have commented on heckshers which
their LOR does not recommend, a recent post asked for a list of heckshers
which *are* accepted by reliable halachic authorities.  The following is
a letter sent out recently by the Vaad Horabonim of Detroit containing 
a list of reliable heckshers.

The following is a flyer produced by Merkaz, the Laymen's Association
of the Vaad Horabonim of Greater Detroit; 15919 West Ten Mile Road,
Suite 208; Southfield, MI  48237; (810) 424-8880; FAX (810) 424-8882  


	In response to many requests, the Merkaz has compiled a list
of the most common out-of-state kashrus symbols generally considered
reliable.  This is only a partial list; omission of any particular
symbol does not imply that it is not reliable.  For information
regarding any symbol not listed here, please consult your Rav.
	This list pertains mainly to commercially packaged products
sold in stores.  When considering food establishments such as
caterers, hotels, restaurants, fast food stores, bakeries and butchers
it is advisable to contact a knowledgable person in the same city for
information about the reliablility of the particular establishment in

The "OU"
  _____         Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations
 /     \        333 7th Avenue
| |   | |       New York, NY  10001
| \___/ |       (212) 563-4000
 \_____/        Rabbi M. Genack, Rabbinic Coordinator

The "OK"
  _____         The Organized Kashrus Laboratories
 / | / \        1372 Carroll Street
|  |/   |       Broooklyn, NY  11213     
|  |\   |       (718) 756-7500
 \_|__\/        Rabbi D. Y. Levy, Rabbinic Administrator

The "Chof K"
 _____          Kosher Supervision Service
      \         1444 Queen Anne Road
   K   |        Teaneck, NJ  07666
 _____/         (201) 837-0500
		Rabbi Dr. H. Z. Senter, Executive Admin.

The "Star K"

[5 pointed      Vaad Hakashrus of Baltimore
star with a     7504 Seven Mile Lane
'K' in the      Baltimore, MD  21208
center]         (410) 484-4110
		Rabbi M. Heinemann, Rabbinic Admin.

The "BVK"
		Vaas Hakashrus of Buffalo, Inc.
  B|/           P.O.B. 755
  V|\           Williamsville, MY  14221
		(716) 634-3990
		Rabbi D. Krautwirth, Rabbinic Coordinator

The "CRC"       
  _______       Central Rabbinical Congress
 /       \      85 Division Ave.
|   CRC   |     Brooklyn, NY  11211
 \_______/      (718) 384-6765
		Rabbi Y. Gruber, Rabbinic Administrator

The "cRc" of
   /\           Central Rabbinical Council
  /  \          3525 W. Peterson Ave., Suite 415
 /cRc \         Chicago, IL  60659
/______\        (312) 588-1600          
		Rabbi B. Shandalov, Kashruth Administrator

Crown Heights
  ()_()_()      Bais Din of Crown Heights
 / |_| /  \     788 Eastern Prakway, Room 212
|  | |<         Brooklyn, NY  11213
|    | \        (718) 774-7504
 \________/     Rabbi Dov Ber Leretov, Head Supervisor

The "Scroll K"
 _|________|_   Vaad Hakashrus of Denver
 | | | /  | |   1350 Vrain St.
 | | |/   | |   Denver, CO  80204
 | | |\   | |   (303) 595-9349
 |_|_|_\__|_|   Rabbi Y. Feldberger, Rabbinic Administrator
  |        |

The "Heart K"
  __  __        Kehila De Los Angeles
 /  \/  \       415 N. Spaulding    
 \      /       Los Angeles, CA  90036
  \ K  /        (213) 935-8383
   \  /         Rabbi A. Teichelman, Rabbinic Administrator

The "Badatz"
		Eida Haredis of Jerusalem
[seal bearing   Binyanei Zupnik 26A, Rechov Strauss
the Hebrew:     Jerusalem, ISRAEL
B'hasgacha      (02) 251-651
Habadatz shel 
Ha'eida Haredis]

The "NK"
		National Kashruth
 ##  ##  ##     One Route 306           
 ### ## ##      Monsey, NY  10952
 #### ##        (914) 352-4448
 ## ### ##      Rabbi Y. Lipschultz, President
 ##  ### ##

The "MK"
  _____         Montreal Vaad Hair
 /| | /\        5491 Victoria Ave.
| |V|<  |       Montreal, Canada  H3W 2PN
| | | \ |       (514) 739-6363
 \_____/        Rabbi Y. Auerbach, Director

The "OV"
  ____          Kashruth Inspection Service of St. Louis
 /    \         4 Millstone Campus
| \  / |        St. Louis, MO  63146
|  \/  |        (314) 569-2770
 \____/         Rabbi S. Rivkin, Chief Rabbi

The "COR"
  _____         Kashuth Council, Orthodox Division
 /     \        Toronto Jewish Congress
|  COR  |       4600 Bathhurst St.
 \_____/        Willowdale, Ontario  M2R 3V2
		(416) 635-9550
		Rabbi M. Levin, Executive Director

The "KAJ"
 _____          Beth Din of K'hal Adath Jeshurun (Bruer's)
|     |         85-93 Bennett Avenue
| KAJ |         New York, NY  10033
|_____|         (212) 923-3582
		Rabbi Z. Gelley, Rav

[unreadable     Rabbi Moshe Stern (Debrachiner Rav)
seal, sorry]    1514 49th St.
		Brooklyn, NY  11219
		(718) 851-5193

[seal bearing   Chug Chasam Sofer
the Hebrew:     B'nai Brak, Israel
Kasher L'mhadrin, 
Chug Chasam Sofer,
B'nai Brak]

[seal bearing   Rabbi Moshe Y. L. Landa
*either* the    B'nai Brak, Israel
Hebrew or English:
B'hashgacah, Moshe Yehuda Lev Landa, Rav AG"D D'B'nai Brak
Under the supervision of Rabbi Moshe Y. L. Landa, B'nai Brak]


                           Gedaliah Friedenberg

         -=-  Graduate Student- City University of New York  -=-
            -=-  Ohr Somayach Yeshiva - Monsey, New York  -=-


From: <berger@...> (Micha Berger)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 94 08:31:09 -0500
Subject: More on Generational Decline

    R. Papa said to [his teacher] Abayei: What is the difference
    between those earlier [than us], for whom miracles were common, and
    us, for whom miracles are not common? If it is because of

I want to break off here for a second. Tenuyei is from tani, to repeat,
the root means "two". It is also the root for masnisin, Mishna. Clearly
the word means information memorized and repeated, the chain of
masorah, in distinction to ideas that are derived or reasoned from
those facts we inherited.

	      ...in the years of R. Yehuda, all of tenuyei was in
    Nezikin, and we are masnisin...

which either means "learn mishnayos" or "repeat what we learned". The
difference wasn't all that significant in those days. Mishnayos existed
as an easily memorizable form for halachah.

				...6 orders. And when R. Yehuda
    delineates in Uktzin, [the case of] "A woman who dries vegetables
    in a pot", or, some say [the case of] "Olives that were dried cut
    off", [his students] Rav and Shmuel's entire existances [were tied
    up in the resolution] of this issue.  Yet we are masnisin Uktzin in
    13 schools [of thought, with 13 different explanations - Rashi]....

    [Abayei] said to him: The are mosir nefesh [commit their souls] to
    sanctify The Name, we are not mosir nefesh to sanctify The Name.

						- Brachos 20a

The gemara very clearly states that it is possible for one generation
to know more than an earlier one. Abayei's conclusion is that the
lessoning of the generations is in Mersiras nefesh - commitment, not in

If this was all there was to it.

One of the basic differences between Orthodox and Conservative thought
is the mutability of decisions made by earlier generations. Orthodoxy
breaks history down into eras: tana'im, amora'im, rishonim and achronim
(roughly:  mishnaic, talmudic, midevil, and late authorities). A rabbi
of a later era can not dispute one of an earlier era without having
another earlier Rabbi in support. The dictum used to support this
system is that no court can overrule another court unless it is greater
in chochmah (to be translated later) and in number. Since we can get
arbitrarily large courts today, we seem to assume that later
generations have less chochmah than earlier ones.

Chochmah, therefor, is some mental process, but if we want our quote
from the gemara to stand, it is not required for masnisin. So chochmah
doesn't refer to collecting information.

There is a famous quote, from Mes. Tamid: "Who is a chochom? One who
sees what will be born." Chochmah here is a mental skill. But are we
saying it is required in _being_able_ to chase cause to effect; or
perhaps, to know that you _ought_ to study causes to find effects
(think before you do?); or even, chochmah is _acquired_by_ studying
causes to get effects. This seemingly straightforward quote didn't help
as much as I'd guess it would.

What is Chochmah? Well, I went to my copy of the Tanya, the book
describing a Judaism based on Chochmah Bina vaDa'as -- Chabad. I
figured that R.  Shneur Zalman of Liadi must define his terms
somewhere. Sure enough, this is what I found in Chapter 3.
(Disclaimer:  I am not a student of Chabad, my knowledge is very
superficial. This is just a quote from an authorized translation by R.
Nissan Mindel (1962).)

	The intellect of the rational soul, which is the faculty which
	conceives of any thing, is given the appellation of hokhmah --
	chet-hei mem-hei -- the "potentiality" of "what is". When one
	brings forth this power from the potential to the actual, that
	is when [a person] cogitates with his intellect in order to
	understand a thing truly and profoundly as it evolves from the
	concept which he has conceived in his intellect, this is called

Chochmah, then, is the ability to conceive, to imagine, to create new
information, which is then developed by binah. Neither refer to just
warehousing information spoon-fed by the outside world -- the ability
most related to the masnisin of M. Brachos. Chochmah would be the
ability to perform thought-experiments. This helps understand our quote
from Tamid.  A chochom is the one who is ABLE to envision consequences
before acting.

(But what about the oft-quoted mishnah of Ben Zoma (Avos 4:1) "Who is a
chochom? One who learns from all men..."? I don't see how this works
with the either gemara that we quoted, or the Tanya's definition. I
considered the same three alternatives as I did for the mishna in
Tamid: 1- A chochom is one who is able to learn from any person. This
seems to be a statement about midos (personality traits) not
intellect.  2- A chochom would know that you ought to learn from
anyone. This could be, but so would a navon (one blessed with binah,
deductive abilities).  3- Chochmah is acquired by learning from any
person. This is, again, about masnisin -- remembering and being able to
repeat what you learned.

Perhaps, and I admit this is a lame reply, Chochom is used in Avos in a
broad non-technical sense. Chochom could be one who has chochmah, or
one who has any intellectual prowess.)

We can tie these two type of generational descent together by positing
a single cause. Clearly, for mesiras nefesh -- commiting oneself to
G-d, one requires Yir'as Hashem -- awe of G-d. Similarly, we say upon
waking up every morning: reishis chochmah yir'as Hashem -- the begining
or source of chochmah is awe of G-d.

It seems to me from these two phenomena that it is Yir'as Shamayim that
is the primary trait that is diminishing through the years. The gemara
in Brachos about mesiras nefesh, and the increasing crystallization of
halachic decision are the outward manifestations.


End of Volume 17 Issue 43