Volume 17 Number 63
                       Produced: Sun Jan  1 11:33:18 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

From Scarf to Temple - the Ammah
         [Yisrael Medad]
Hebrew in ancient days
         [Eli Turkel]
Israeli Zip Codes
         [Michael Shimshoni]
Kashrut note by Esther Posen
         [Erwin Katz]
NJ consumer Kashrut protection
         [Justin M. Hornstein]
Parshat Hashavua and Hakorat Hatov
         [Eli Turkel]
Paul and/or Peter as a Jewish plant (2)
         [Jeff Woolf, Avi Feldblum]
Pope Peter
         [Ezra Dabbah]
         [Herschel Ainspan]
Response to Ploni's comments
         ["Yaakov Menken"]
Tuning forks on Shabbat?
         [Andrew Greene]
Zip Code
         [Yechiel Wachtel]


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 95 09:16 IST
Subject: From Scarf to Temple - the Ammah

Starting with I. O'Levy's posting Vol. 17 No. 39 -

The size of the Ammah is varied but because of its ramifications
regarding possible entry into areas outside the sacred, limited
portions of Har Habayit (Temple Mount) which was at the most,
500 x 500 ammot, the studies here in Israel based on Halacha as well
as archeology, start at 48 cms. and end at Rav Naeh's 57 cm.


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 95 13:40:56+020
Subject: Hebrew in ancient days

     Tenen asks about speaking Hebrew during first Temple days. I am a 
little confused by the question. If we don't assume this then all the books 
of the prophets are translations from their original words. Similarly, we 
would have to assume that David sang his songs in some other language and 
what we have in Samuel and in tehillim are translations.
     More specifically Rambam (Tefillah 1:4) states that when the Jews were 
exiled by Nebuchadnezzar their Hebrew became mixed with other languages and 
so the Rabbis instituted standard prayers. There is also the midrash that 
even in Eygpt the Jews kept to their clothing, language and names.



From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 11:45:52 +0200
Subject: Israeli Zip Codes

Lon Eisenberg  reported his sad experiences  when he tried to  get the
Zip Code (miq'ud) for his own new address:

>My family moved to Har Nof in the summer.  Since then, we've been trying
>to find out what our zip code is, but nobody seems to know (don't tell
>me I should have gone to the post office to find out, because when we
>lived in Rehovot and one of our neighbors did that, the clerk said "I
>don't know.  Why don't you ask one of your neighbors?").

I have no wish to defend all Israeli officials, but that reply of that
postal clerk  sounds surprising,  especially if made  in the  last few
years.  At  post offices they sell  among other goodies also  a miq'ud
directory (Madrikh Miq'ud), in which all  such Zip Codes are listed by
town and street  (and also for P.O.Box numbers).  Here  in my office I
have an older version, the 3rd edition of 1986, while at home I have a
newer one with  a few additions.  Lon  did not give his  street in Har
Nof so  I could not look  it up.  I  did find (in that  older edition)
95400 for Shaulson Street in Har Nof.

As an advice to Lon, who had said that by now his personal problem had
been solved, and for other Israelis,  I recommend to get such a Miq'ud
guide, as I found it very useful,  and using codes does often speed up

Shabbat Shalom,

 Michael Shimshoni


From: ERWIN_KATZ_at_~<7BK-ILN-CHICAGO@...> (Erwin Katz)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 10:52:57 CST
Subject: Kashrut note by Esther Posen

     The New Jersey posting is a result of two cases that were decided a
couple of years ago. New York and New Jersey both had statutes governing
"Kashrut" and requiring that if a product is advertised as Kosher it
must be in accordance with orthodox standards. Actually the Kashrut
standards were determined and enforced by a commission empowered to go
through the attorney general. Both statutes were challenged in the
courts. The New York law, I beleve, was upheld while the New Jersey law
was stricken.


From: Justin M. Hornstein <jmh@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 10:55:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NJ consumer Kashrut protection

Esther Posen relates:
> In the kosher establishments I frequent in New Jersey there is now a new 
> "Kosher Certification" hanging on the walls.  It is a state government 
> supervised posting, I believe, and it states whether the establishment is 
> kosher under the Orthodox, Conservative or Reform version of "kosher".  I am 
> not sure what the history of this new poster is, but I believe it is an 
> outcome of some court case that centered around whether the Orthodox had a 
> patent on the word "Kosher".

The court case was from a Kosher store challenging that the State of New
Jersey could actually establish Kashrut standards for consumers. Prior
to this there was an office of supervision and penalties for
violations. All of the Jewish movements were in favor of maintaining the
state supervision, akin to what N.Y.S has. The NJ Supreme Court ruled
against the state supervision, and the result is these consumer
disclosure statements. I don't think there are any penalties for
violating what is written. They are hard to read and aside from showing
items of immediate disqualification (Mashgiach affiliation, Shabbat
status, etc.), they don't really help you decide unless you already have
some notion of the Kashrut status.

The store that brought the court challenge is now, I believe, out of
						Justin Hornstein


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 13:42:49+020
Subject: Parshat Hashavua and Hakorat Hatov

      A Dvar Torah that I heard on parshat shemot in the name of Rav
Chaim Shmulevitz:

     When Moshe comes to Midyan the daughters of Yitro refer to him as
an "eygptian". The midrash explains this by comparing this to someone
stung by a scorpion who then runs to the river to save himself and there
rescues someone. Upon being thanked he says that the scorpion was the

    Rav Shmulevitz explains the midrash that Moshe rabbenu left eygpt
because he killed an eygptian. Thus when we helped the daughters of
Yitro that eygptian was an indirect cause of his helping them and so
deserves thanks. This Rav Shmulevitz concludes that one is required to
be grateful to everyone who was an even indirect cause for helping us
even when his intentions were not for good.



From: Jeff Woolf <F12043@...>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 94 18:30:29 IST
Subject: Paul and/or Peter as a Jewish plant

The idea that Paul (not Peter) was a Jewish plant in the early Church
originates in the early anti-Christian polemical work 'Toldot Yeshu;'
whivh can be found in Eisenstein's Ozar HaVikkuhim. 

Jeffrey Woolf

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 07:57:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Paul and/or Peter as a Jewish plant

Jeff Woolf writes:
> The idea that Paul (not Peter) was a Jewish plant in the early Church
> originates in the early anti-Christian polemical work 'Toldot Yeshu;'
> whivh can be found in Eisenstein's Ozar HaVikkuhim. 

Interesting, I was just at shiur this Shabbat morning where Richard
Shiffmiller (and welcome to the list!) brought this topic up. He told me
of a shuir he had attended given by Dr. Leiman who identified a source
describes Peter (and Paul I think) as being sent by Sanhedrin to Rome is
found in a censored Rashi in Avodah Zarah. Dr Leiman, would you like to

Avi Feldblum
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: <EDABBAH@...> (Ezra Dabbah)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 19:01:45 -0500
Subject: Pope Peter

I have also heard that Peter who's hebrew name is Shimon was indeed a
great man. I remember learning in Shulhan Aruch Hilchot Ta'aneet that
you are to fast the 8th, 9th and 10th of Tevet (siman 580 se'ef
2). Reasons are given for the 8th and 10th but for the 9th it says we
don't know why we fast. It is said that Shimon died on that day and
that's why we fast and for obvious reasons we don't publicize the
reason. I'm interested in hearing any other theories on this.


From: <ainspan@...> (Herschel Ainspan)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 21:02:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Pronounciation

Sorry for the late entry, I was away from email for a while.  2 points:

	1.  Is the modern Israeli pronounciation close enough to real
Sefaradit to serve as a valid pronounciation for Kriat Shema?  e.g. the
Israeli pronounciation lacks a distinction between aleph and ayin.  Do
the teshuvot allowing conversion from Ashkenazis to Sefaradit also allow
conversion from Ashkenazis to Israeli?
	2.  I also learned to speak with the Israeli pronounciation, but
changed to Ashkenazis for davening/layning, since my father, his father,
etc. all pronounced Ashkenazis.  My rav said my change didn't even need
hatarat nedarim; apparently he held my previous Israeli pronounciation
was a minhag ta'ut (erroneous custom).
	-Herschel Ainspan (<ainspan@...>)


From: "Yaakov Menken" <ny000548@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 10:29:25 -0500
Subject: Response to Ploni's comments

Since the time of my "Final Comments on Sherut Leumi", one writer has 
sent forth _two_ posts devoted not only to arguing his case but to chal-
lenging my [intellectual] honesty.  As his first effort was about 65% 
content, I decided that a response would put the lie to my use of the 
term "final."  But his more recent effort reverses the ratio, and then 
some.  The basis for this, which he called my "fantasy," was as follows:

>In reading Yaakov Menken's postings on Sheirut Leumi, I fail to
>understand why he CONTINUES to "place" Sheirut Leumi women on Army bases
I'm not sure whose fantasy he was reading, or how late at night, but
I have not said this.  I have never said this.  I will never say this.
Even once.  The reference to "CONTINUES" is truly puzzling.

>[...] to the extent of citing R. Aharon Rotter's comments [...]
The Sha'arei Aharon wrote about the Army, and about Sherut Leumi. He did 
not express or imply that women in Sherut Leumi served on Army bases.

>Was the Chazon Ish REALLY opposed to [Sherut Leumi] in Hospitals [...]?
Yes, the Chazon Ish forbade Sherut Leumi [asura - Iggros Ch"I (letters),
V3 #98-99] even in a "frum environment" [V1 #112, 113; V3 #97-99].

Continuation of this debate is wholly counter-productive.  If Ploni is 
interested further, he can read the above letters or Sha'arei Aharon Al 
B'ayot HaSha'ah pp. 67-68. In any event, I would sincerely appreciate it 
if we could argue the merits of positions without defaming individuals.

Yaakov Menken


From: <Andrew_Marc_Greene@...> (Andrew Greene)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 10:22 -0400
Subject: Tuning forks on Shabbat?

Is it permissible to use a tuning fork (*not* a pitch pipe!) on Shabbat?

My understanding is that we don't play instruments on Shabbat for two
reasons; one is because the Temple was destroyed and the other is the
fear that the instrument might break. (Certainly restringing a stringed
instrument would be the same as threading a loom and would be a "primary

But a tuning fork can't break (it's a solid piece of metal) and, even if
one managed to break it, couldn't be repaired.

And a tuning fork isn't really an instrument: it can only be heard by
striking it lightly and then holding it up to one's ear; thus it can't
be used rhythmically, nor can it be "performed on" for others, and it
only produces one pitch so it can't be used melodically. (In all three
of these attributes it differs from a pitch pipe, which is clearly an

  Andrew Greene


From: Yechiel Wachtel <YWACHTEL@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 04:01:43 PST
Subject: Zip Code

		Zip Codes DO change in Israel every few blocks, Shaulson St.
has at least two that I know of. It may even change at the SuperSol!!! 
Check your phone bill for the proper Code.
		A neighbor from 44... and 95400 


End of Volume 17 Issue 63