Volume 18 Number 05
Produced: Mon Jan 23 0:11:05 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Conservative Practice: Kehuna, Mikva, Aliyot
["Richard Friedman"]
Mikva use by unmarried women
[Jerrold Landau]
Motivation and permitted actions
[e.krischer]
Motivation in Mitzvot
[Francine S. Glazer]
Public Rituals and Basic Observance
[Margo Gutstein]
Women Participating
[Harry Weiss]
Women Participating in Rituals
[Rena Whiteson]
Women's Lib & Jewish Practice, Etc.
[Rani Averick]
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From: "Richard Friedman" <RF@...>
Date: 20 Jan 1995 14:57:14 GMT
Subject: Conservative Practice: Kehuna, Mikva, Aliyot
Several posters in MJ 18:1 comment on practice in Conservative
congregations. Without getting into questions of the validity of
particular practices approved by Conservative rabbis (questions outside
the ground rules of this list), it is appropriate to clarify some facts.
Elisheva Schwartz describes herself as a former Conservative
rabbinical student and says that, "as far as I know, the only place the
kehuna [status as kohen; priesthood] is acknowledged any more in the
Conservative movement is at the separate seating minyan at the [Jewish
Theological] Seminary." For a former JTS student, her knowledge is
surprisingly limited. The Conservative shul to which I belong (in
Washington, D.C., suburbs, not in NYC) follows the traditional
distinctions in giving out aliyot at all services, and this practice is
common though not universal in Conservative shuls. Our shul also has
Birkat Kohanim (duchening; priestly blessing), though admittedly only on
Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur at the present time.
Jeremy Nussbaum asks about the extent of nidda observance in the
Conservative movement, and about the extent of advocacy of such
observance. I am also curious about both of these questions, and would
welcome reports.
Finally, regarding women in Conservative shuls who take aliyot,
Jonathan Katz comments on the motives of some who do so yet do not keep
shabbat or kashrut. Without addressing the propriety of women having
aliyot, he disparages them for taking on this practice without following
more basic practices. He does not explicitly say how frequent this
combination occurs, but one might easily infer that he thinks that most
women in Conservative shuls who take aliyot also eat cheeseburgers. I
do not think this is true, and I know it is not true in our shul (where
women are given aliyot).
Richard Friedman
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From: <LANDAU@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 09:34:43 EST
Subject: Mikva use by unmarried women
The discussion about Mikva use by an unmarried women brings to mind a story
that I heard on the subject a few years ago. Unfortunately I do not remember
the source from whom I heard the story. Nor do I remember the exact the
venue, although I do remember it was in a Lithuanian Yeshiva in prewar
Europe.
It came to the attention of the Rosh Yeshiva that a bachur (Yeshiva student)
had been engaging in premarital relations. The bachur was invited to discuss
the situation with the Rosh Yeshiva. The Rosh Yeshiva asked the bachur
if the woman had at least gone to the Mikva before the events. The
bachur replied that, of course she had, as he would never contemplate going
against such a severe prohibition as niddah. At which point the Rosh Yeshiva
immediately expelled the bachur from the Yeshiva.
Had the woman not gone to the Mikva, the act (although halachically more
severe) would have been understood as an act of passion, of giving in to one's
taavas (desires). This can be forgiven, as people do give into their taavas
on occasion. However the going to the Mikva indicated that there was
premeditation involved, and the act was not an act of pure taava. As such
there ws no longer any place for the bachur at the Yeshiva.
In halacha, is is considered much worse to do an avera (sin) out of
premeditation than out of a concession to desire.
Jerrold Landau
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From: e.krischer <elk@...>
Date: 20 Jan 1995 11:19 EST
Subject: Motivation and permitted actions
Micha Berger <berger@...> writes:
>...I question the practice in cases where the motive is questionable. :-)
and
Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...> writes
>...According
>to [Leah Gordon's] post, if I read it correctly, as long as something is
>*permissible* it doesn't matter what the underlying motivation is.
>
>I cannot disagree more with this idea.
I would appreciate it if someone could post a list of permitted halachik
actions performed by a halachik/orthodox/pick-your-adjective Jew where
we openly, publicly question the motivation of the Jew in performing the
action.
I do not ask the question rhetorically. I am trying to whether or not I
am paranoid in thinking that such motivation questions (regarding
permitted actions) are only raised in connection with women.
Thank you.
Ellen Krischer
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From: <fglazer@...> (Francine S. Glazer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 10:13:37 EST
Subject: Motivation in Mitzvot
Jonathan Katz writes:
>I speak partly from experience. Having gone to a conservative shul for a
>while, I saw women going up for aliya's (I am putting aside the question
>of whether or not this is halachically permissible) whose couldn't read
>Hebrew and didn't keep Shobbos or a kosher house! My point here is not
>to denigrate those who do not keep Shobbos or a kosher home (I have my
>ample share of faults), but my point is: why bother with getting an
>aliyah, which is relatively meaningless in the grand picture, when you
>don't even follow the basics? (end of quote)
Why are you singling out the women? There are many men in the
conservative movement who do not keep shabbos or a kosher house, yet who
regularly receive aliyot, too. Like Jonathan, I am not trying to
denigrate those who do not keep certain mitzvot, either, nor am I trying
to single out a movement. Also, I am not agreeing with the conservative
movement's policy to give women aliyot.
I am simply wondering why Jonathan does not extend his comment to the
men as well.
Fran Glazer
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From: <margo@...> (Margo Gutstein)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 10:53:49 -0800
Subject: Public Rituals and Basic Observance
On 18 Jan 1995, Jonathan Katz wrote:
>I speak partly from experience. Having gone to a conservative shul for a
>while, I saw women going up for aliya's (I am putting aside the question
>of whether or not this is halachically permissible) whose couldn't read
>Hebrew and didn't keep Shobbos or a kosher house! My point here is not
>to denigrate those who do not keep Shobbos or a kosher home (I have my
>ample share of faults), but my point is: why bother with getting an
>aliyah, which is relatively meaningless in the grand picture, when you
>don't even follow the basics?
Jonathan makes a very good point about people who don't even live
minimally in accordance with halakhah seeking the kavod that comes with
the "public" rituals of Judaism, such as an aliyah in shul. However,
why pick on the women? Surely you don't mean that all those men in that
Conservative synagogue who got aliyot were shomre shabat and shomre
kashrut and able to read Hebrew! Strictly playing devil's advocate, you
cannot blame those women for wanting the same recognition that the men
have, when they don't see any difference between themselves and those
men in level of observance or of ability, and they lack the education to
have any true understanding of Yiddishkeit. Given that the men and
often the rabbi in such a congregration don't place much value on "the
basics," and yet you don't see them running away from aliyot and other
such public ritual participation, what do you expect from the women?
Put another way, if you take the "basics" out of Judaism, and all you
have left is the public ritual stuff, and you tell the women that they
can't participate in that, what do they have left? So I don't think you
can blame Conservative women who are not keeping shabbat for wanting
aliyot in the synagogue any more than you can blame Conservative men who
aren't keeping shabbat for doing the same.
Margo Gutstein
<margo@...>
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From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 23:23:46 -0800
Subject: Women Participating
There has been a considerable amount of discussion recently on MJ about
women dancing with the Torah, prayer services, Bat Mitzvahs etc.
There has been a significant change in circumstances during the past
generation. When I was a child I remember people hiding the bacon when
bubbie and zeide came to visit. Now it is the grandchildren who have to
explain to bubbie and zeide why they can't eat fish in the local
restaurant.
For those of us lucky enough to have been raised in an observant
environment keeping Mitzvot is what comes naturally. Those who do not
come from frum families had made conscious decision to change their
ways. These changes are made based on various intellectual and
emotional considerations.
It is often women who return the Torah way of life and through them
their entire families return. It is a travesty that some right wingers
attempt to push these women away from Yidishkeit by prohibiting them
from participating. Obviously we cannot allow women to do what is
prohibited by Halacha, but it is terribly wrong to deny them what is
permitted just because it was not done in the past.
Micha Berger questions those who wish to participate with inappropriate
motives. Perhaps we should develop a Shabbat lie detector to check
everyone's motives. Of course we will also need to check each man's
motive before he get an Aliyah to insure that he is interested in
honoring the Torah and not himself.
Harry
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From: <rena@...> (Rena Whiteson)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 11:36:27 MST
Subject: Re: Women Participating in Rituals
Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...> writes:
> Leah Gordon recently defended the "right" of women to participate in
> rituals (the examples she used were dancing with the Torah and the
> celebrating of Bat-Mitzvahs) *regardless of their intentions*. According
> to her post, if I read it correctly, as long as something is
> *permissible* it doesn't matter what the underlying motivation is.
I am very surprised ( amazed really ) that you read Leah's post as you did.
What I understood her to mean what that if something is permissible, it is
permissable. Poor intentions do not make the activity impermissible.
Nowhere did she say or imply that underlaying motivation doesn't matter.
If everyone's motivations were scrutinized before he/she could perform
a mitzvah, or particpate in community activities, there would be a lot
fewer mitzvot performed. As Leah pointed out, from the activity comes
the motivation.
Rena Whiteson
<rw@...>
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From: <rya@...> (Rani Averick)
Date: 20 Jan 1995 11:27 EST
Subject: Women's Lib & Jewish Practice, Etc.
Jonathan Katz writes:
>I speak partly from experience. Having gone to a conservative shul for a
>while, I saw women going up for aliya's (I am putting aside the question
>of whether or not this is halachically permissible) whose couldn't read
>Hebrew and didn't keep Shobbos or a kosher house! My point here is not
>to denigrate those who do not keep Shobbos or a kosher home (I have my
>ample share of faults), but my point is: why bother with getting an
>aliyah, which is relatively meaningless in the grand picture, when you
>don't even follow the basics?
My take on the situation is quite different. Jonathan, in a way it is
_because_ they don't read Hebrew or keep Shabbos or keep a kosher house
that they want to participate more fully in the synagogue (please notice
that the following is _my_ take on the situation; I know that not
everyone thinks alike):
Some women who do not know much about traditional Torah Judaism
sincerely view ritual participation in the synagogue service as
essential, for a simple reason: For them and for their communities,
religious life and ritual take place only in the synagogue. Where else
are they going to participate in spiritual activities and reach out to
Gd if not during services in the synagogue? From this point of view, it
is quite logical for women to want to participate fully in the services,
and to feel that it is very unfair if they can't participate fully.
On the other hand, when a woman experiences a bountiful ritual and
spiritual role in her every day life, ranging from making blessings over
her food, to preparing for Shabbos and holidays, to saying Shma with the
kids, to performing acts of kindness and participating in community
life, to setting a good Jewish example in her workplace, to keeping a
kosher kitchen, to praying, to studying and teaching Torah, etc. etc.,
she does not necessarily feel a void if she does not get an aliyah on
shabbos, or if she is not counted in a minyan. (On the contrary, it is
a safe bet that plenty of observant women are quite relieved that they
do _not_ have to make it to minyan!)
I also acknowledge that there are observant, Jewishly educated women who
do sincerely feel a void and want to participate more fully. I once was
taken to a women's tefillah group for Simchat Torah. I am not
personally into women's tefillah groups and such, but I went with my
hostess. As a bas Levi (daughter of a Levi), I was called to the Torah
to make a revised, halachically permissible blessing -- it did not
actually include the name of Gd -- over the Torah for the second aliyah.
The fact is that it was a very nice experience. (For one thing, it was
the only time in my life that I did something as a bas Levi; the only
other significance I know of in being a bas Levi is that if I have a
firstborn son he does not need a pidyon haben.)
I can see why some orthodox women sincerely wish to participate in such
things for the purpose of spiritual fulfillment, and not necessarily
because of any secular feminist agenda (though there are those types as
well). Considering the crazy things that people can choose to get into
in this day and age, I think its wonderful if some women are choosing to
get closer to Gd in halachically permissible ways.
Rani
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End of Volume 18 Issue 5
