Volume 18 Number 72
                       Produced: Sun Mar  5  1:18:57 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Zvi Weiss]
Fish after Meat
         [Eric Safern]
Fish and Meat: Sources?
         [Todd Litwin]
Hot Water on Shabbat (3)
         [Eliyahu Teitz, Zvi Weiss, Isseroff Rivkah]
Hot water on Shabbat (v18n64)
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
Mixing Fish and Milk
         [Yitzchok Adlerstein]
Shaking Hands
         [Anya Finegold]
Shukeling (2)
         [Daniel Epstein, Eric Safern]
Shukeling - more info
         [Nachum Hurvitz]
         [Yisrael Medad]
Using Hot Water on Shabbat
         [Shimon Schwartz]
Was Queen Esther a vegetarian?
         [Richard Schwartz]
Wearing Gloves to Avoid Washing
         [Warren Burstein]


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:09:18 -0500
Subject: Fish

I think that according to RASHI on that spot in the Gemara, the danger was
that this combination could cause "Tzara'at"...



From: <esafern@...> (Eric Safern)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 12:10:30 EST
Subject: Re: Fish after Meat

Dr. Backon writes in V 18 #41 of recent research findings on the
interaction in the liver between a substance contained in fish and
another substance in beef.

In addition, apparently these two substances may work against each other
in the body (if I understand the explanation).

However, he has not demonstrated that washing the mouth out with whiskey
after having a piece of gefilte fish prevents these bad effects.

 How long until the 'fish' substance is flushed from the liver (and the
whole body)?

Should we start waiting six hours after fish?  Or give up fish
altogether?  Or wait for another study?


From: <litwin@...> (Todd Litwin)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:25:34 +0800
Subject: Fish and Meat: Sources?

Concerning the practice of separating fish and meat, I've heard only one
reason: that is is somehow dangerous. But I've heard of two different
sources for this. Some have told me that it comes from the
Gemara. Others have said that it comes from the Shulchan Aruch. But no
one has ever presented to me an actual reference. And, unless I missed
something in the discussion here, this includes mail.jewish. I'm
interested in reading the original language from the earliest source for
this practice. Can anyone back up a claim for the source of fish/meat
separate by a citation?


From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:58:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Hot Water on Shabbat

A practical method for using hot water on Shabbat would be to use an urn.
 Take out what is needed to wash dishes and cool it off by adding water in a
permitted fashion.  Likewise for washing hands and face.

Eliyahu Teitz

From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:08:33 -0500
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbat

Some years ago, in Chicago, there was a family that had a rather (I
thought) simple way to get around the problem of hot water on Shabbat.
This family later made Aliyah and -- alas -- the Ba'al Habyit has passed
to Olam Ha'Emet

Anyway, what they did was (a) they bought a small air tank and an air
com- pressor to "recharge" the tank with compressed air, (b) they
installed a series of valves and piping on their (standard) hot water
tank such that they could have hot water exit from the BOTTOM of the
tank and still flow into the house plumbing, (c) an additional cut-off
valve (I think) to shut off the cold water intake.

Normally, in our systems, cold water flows into the tank, get heated and
pushes the already heated water out.  In this arrangement, the cold
water intake is shut off before Shabbat (and the water inside is already
boiling hot).  The air tank is opened into the hot water heater as it
provides the "push" to get the hot water through the system.  As
normally, the hot water comes out on top, there would still be a problem
of the AIR getting into the system instead of the water -- hence the
additional valving to cause the hot water to come out the bottom.  As
all of this water is heated BEFORE shabbat and no new water is coming
in, I donot believe that there is a serious problem using this water
(not for whole-body showering...).  Anyway, after shabbat, the remaining
air is bled out, the valving is put back to normal and new cold water is
let in....  This is a rough outline but I believe that it is pretty


From: Isseroff Rivkah <lvrivkah@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:36:04 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbat

Chaim Sacknovitz asked:
>Do any of you know of a practical, inexpensive method
>of using hot water on Shabbat?

I"m sure you will get many responses similar to this one: just turn off 
the hot water heater right before Shabbat. The water stays comfortably 
warm all thru Shabbat, and the new water entering the boiler is not being 
heated. If your water heater is "thermally jacketed" the water stays 
quite warm thru Shabbat.

Rivkah Isseroff

From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:12:35 +0200
Subject: Hot water on Shabbat (v18n64)

The Israel company Amcor, came out with a patent to take out hot water
from the boiler without leting cold water in. That solves the first
problem. Mixing hot and cold water in the faucet could be a problem
where the cold water is warmed up to Yad Soledet Bo (39-44 degrees
Centegrade). If the cold water was opened first and then the hot water
added, keeping the temperature below 39 degrees centegrade, should solve
that problem.
 If one lives in an apartment house with central hot water system, with
most of the tenants, non-jews, I did hear some 30 years ago that some
permit using the hot water since 1 Jew is not directly causing the
boiler to boil more water I don't remember if that was accepted since it
wasn't a problem of mine.  The Canadian problem, with the cold, perhaps
a large thermus could solve the problem for washing up.
 Yehudah Edelstein "yehudah$aipm.co.il" Raanana, Israel


From: <yitzchok.adlerstein@...> (Yitzchok Adlerstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 23:10:42 -0800
Subject: Mixing Fish and Milk

A recent posting expressed surprise with my contention that Sephardim do
not mix fish and milk, not just fish and meat as Ashkenazim are
accustomed.  The author believed that this was just a Chabad custom,
with all others siding with the Taz Yoreh Deah, siman 87, who believes
that our version of the Beis Yosef incorporates a spurious text.

In fact, the prohibition against cooking fish with milk or cheese is 
fairly widespread in Sephardic practice.  See Kaf HaChaim, Yoreh Deah  
87:24 and Orach Chaim 173:3.  See also Shu"t Yechaveh Da'at, (6:48)


From: <ae_fine@...> (Anya Finegold)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 13:31:04 -0500
Subject: Shaking Hands

I was wondering if any mjers would have any creative suggestions as to
what to say to men (non- religious or not Jewish) who extend their hands
out upon being introduced, (aside for the standard "I can't shake -
religious thing..".  I also heard of a heter for shaking if its just as
a formality such as in business meetings, etc.  Anyone know more details
about it?

Anya Finegold
Have a super day!


From: <d.epstein@...> (Daniel Epstein)
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 12:35:22 gmt
Subject: Shukeling

I once heard a very interesting reason for shukelling but I am not sure who
it is attributed to...if anyone.
The following analogy can be used.
G-d is compared to a roaring fire and we mere mortals are compared to small
flames. As you bring a small flame near to a large one, the small flame
starts to flicker as it is affected by the surrounding air currents that are
generated from the large flame.
The small flame is in effect 'shukelling' until it gets inextricably drawn
into the large one.
Tis is what happens when we are praying. Our souls are in direct
communication with G-d and we simply shukel as an indirect result of the
power of prayer and proximity to G-d.

		|    Daniel Epstein     |
		|  Email:<de01@...>  |

From: <esafern@...> (Eric Safern)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 15:35:29 EST
Subject: Shukeling

In V18 #52, Avi Rabinowitz suggests two opinions as to the origin of the
distinctive Jewish trait of swaying during prayer (and learning, to a
lesser extent).

I found an interesting discussion of shukling in a wonderful book I
borrowed from the Jewish Center's library (thanks, Rabbi Wermuth! :-)

	_Meditations on the Siddur_  
	B.S. Jacobson
	"Sinai" Publishing, Tel Aviv (Israel) 1966

originally published in Hebrew under the title _Nesiv Binah_.

After quoting the Kuzari's explanation of the origin of the custom - the
same explanation quoted by Avi Rabinowitz, the author cites the
following authorities on the question:

"To shukle, or not to shukle?"

Here is my summary of his analysis.  All mistakes are my own.

Shibbalei Haleket supports swaying, based on a pasuk in tehilim (35.10)
"All my bones shall say: Lrd - Who is like unto You?"

Magen Avraham says, only in Pesukai Dezimrah, not in Amidah, and
interprets the Rama to support his position.  However, the MA brings
down the Maharil, who supports swaying, so the MA concludes: whatever
you want.

The Shnei Luchos Habris says standing still is an aid to concentration,
and therefore does not recommend swaying during the Amidah.  In fact, he
says, "If anyone tells you to sway, ignore them."

The Mishna Berurah, says, like the MA, whatever, as long as you

The Besht is reported to have given an analogy - "When someone is
drowning in a river, he thrashes about violently in the water in his
efforts to extricate himself from being swept away by the stream.
Certainly the bystanders will not mock his efforts.  So too when a
worshipper sways violently, he should not be laughed at.  He, too, is
trying to extricate himself from the raging waters - the impurities
clinging to him, the extraneous thoughts distracting him from his
concentration on his prayers."

Finally, as to swaying during Kedusha, the Bet Yosef cites the Shibbalei
Haleket having heard in the name of Rashi, support for this custom from
the following pasuk: (Isa. 6.4): '"And the posts of the door were moved
at the sound of them that called."  Wood and stone shook and shuddered
in dread of the King; how much more should we shudder in dread of Him!'


From: Nachum Hurvitz <NHurvitz@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:22:25 -0500
Subject: Shukeling - more info

Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan z"l in his book about prayer, "A Call to the
Infinite" writes that shukeling is more of a channeling and release of
emotion that can actually detract from prayer. A person can only really
achieve full kavannah (intent?) by standing perfectly still and
concentrating on the words. Let the emotion well up from within, and
rather than "blowing off steam", use it as a catalyst to increase the
power of your prayer. Try it once, I did and found it helpful.

Nachum Hurvitz


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 08:42 IST
Subject: Shukling

If I recall, in the biography of Rav Moshe Feinstein, it is noted that
Rav Moshe preferred to stand absolutely still during (at least?) Shmoneh
Esrei after he had to do so when being interrogated by some secret
police in Europe.  He said that he found it more awesome to stand still
than to shukle.


From: <schwartz@...> (Shimon Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 17:29:29 +0500
Subject: Re: Using Hot Water on Shabbat

  >From: Chaim Sacknovitz <chaim@...>

  In our minyan on Shabbat morning, we were discussing the Isur of using
  hot water on Shabbat.  There are 2 basic problems.  When opening the
  hot water tap, cold water is immediately introduced into the hot water
  boiler.  One cannot close the cold water coming into the boiler since
  the pressure is needed to "push" the hot water out.

If you have access to the hot water tank, you might be able to
remove water via the tank's drain valve.  You would then be able
to close the incoming cold water line valve.


From: Richard Schwartz <SCHWARTZ@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:04:32 
Subject: Was Queen Esther a vegetarian?

     I have heard that Queen Esther was a vegetarian while in King 
Ahasueros' court so that she could keep kosher without revealing her 
identity as a Jewess.  I would appreciate learning a source for this 
as well as any other information related to it that anyone might be 
aware of.  Many thanks.
      Richard Schwartz
      New address: <schwartz@...>


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 00:27:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Wearing Gloves to Avoid Washing

If one is already going to make preparations to deal with the problems
of washing, why not carry a bottle of water?

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


End of Volume 18 Issue 72