Volume 18 Number 91
                       Produced: Mon Mar 20 20:47:40 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Calf found n Shechted Cow
         [Moishe Kimelman]
Escalators and Theft Detectors on Shabbat
         [Josh Backon]
Goal in Halacha
         [Zvi Weiss]
Jewish Community Networks
         [Avrum Goodblat]
Kashrut - v18#61
         [David Charlap]
Kibud Av/Aym in kiddush/zimun
         [Nataniel E. Leserowitz]
Kiddush in Shul
         [Finley Shapiro]
Life, Afterlife, Resurrection 18 #80
         [Neil Parks]
Privacy of Convert
         [Eliyahu Teitz]
Synagogue Politics
         [Michael Lipkin]
Trope from Sinai?
         [Bobby Fogel]


From: <kimel@...> (Moishe Kimelman)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 17:56:16 +1100
Subject: Calf found n Shechted Cow

In # 83 Mike Gerver wrote:

>I learned that for Jews an
>animal can technically be eaten as soon as it is shechted, even it is
>still kicking, and it is not considered Ever Min Hachai, although for
>Bnei Noach it is considered Ever Min Hachai until the animal is really
>dead. Again, I don't know the sources. In practice, I think there would
>be other reasons why the calf could not be eaten while it was still
>alive. For one thing, it would have to soaked and salted, or

Two points I'd like to make.  Firstly, the problem of ever min hachai 
(eating the limb of a live animal) applies even if the animal has died, as 
long as the limb or meat (basar min hachai) was taken from the animal while 
it was still alive. Thus we can have a case of the "donor" animal being 
eaten before the ever min hachai.

Secondly, raw meat may be eaten without salting or broiling.  It is only 
cooked meat that may not be eaten unless salted.  As a matter of fact there 
may have been times when it was a mitzvah to eat raw meat.  When Yom Kippur 
would fall on a Friday (something which can no longer occur due to the fixed 
calendar) the meat of the Yom Kippur sacrifices would have to be eaten on 
Friday night.  It could not however be cooked as it was Shabbos.  The Mishna 
in Menachot 99b says that the Babylonian kohanim would it it raw.


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Sun,  12 Mar 95 11:45 +0200
Subject: Re: Escalators and Theft Detectors on Shabbat

My dear friend Reb Gedaliah Friedenberg mentioned a sefer on
electricity.  He is referring to KOVETZ MA'AMARIM B'INYANEI CHASHMAL
ELECTRONI V'CHASHMAL published by the Machon Ma'da'i Technologi
Le'Ba'ayot Halacha, POB 16121 Jerusalem (tel: +972-2-424880,
423230). They also published CHIMUM MAYIM Be'SHABBAT, and MA'ALIYOT
Be'SHABBAT (elevators on Shabbat).

Gedaliah is right. You need to know quite a lot about electricity to
understand the principles involved. I had to take out an old physics
book to refresh my memory.



From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 07:52:52 -0500
Subject: Goal in Halacha

I get an impression from some of the writers in the "Feminism" issue
that they are "not fulfilled" or "don't feel good" or are "emotionally
unfulfilled" or in similar "pain".  I do not question that pain.
However, the rest of the posting goes on to imply that the "goal" of
halacha is to allow one to be "emotionally fulfilled", "feel close to
G-d", "feel like a full-fledged member of the Kahal", etc.  I am not
sure that is at all correct.  My impression of halacha is that it tells
us what to do to be "Ovdei Hashem" -- servants of G-d.  Of course, the
halacha gives us several different options of HOW to be such an "eved"
("Slave") or "Shifcha" ("maid") and we try to find an option that we
feel most comfortable with -- but if we can find NO such option, that
does not mean we are to go and re-write the halacha.  Nor does it mean
that we are to cast aspersions upon CHAZAL insinuating that they are
"sexist" or "chauvinistic".  CHAZAL are transmitting to us the Mesorah
as they received it.  Rather, if we are not comfortable with our
options, it seems to me that we have the following choices: 

1. Accept the unhappiness and simply note to one's self that one is
  fulfilling the will of G-d and find "satisfaction" in that.
2. Re-analyze the options and see whether one can find an option that is
  more fulfilling.
3. Review WHY one is so unhappy with the options as presented.  Maybe
  OUR value system has to be re-thought.

Of course, I distinguish between halacha (and even established Minhag)
and "stupidity".  As noted in earlier postings, there are enough
instances where "Krumkeit" (stupidity) rather than "Frumkeit" is
applied.  Examples include the matter of not properly teaching women how
to handle their obligation of Zimun, or that of Birchat Gomel as well as
the general unwillingness of the Frum community (in many places) to deal
with the very legit. needs of women (as mentioned in earlier postings).
I think that if we focus on the "Krumkeit" and seek change in that area,
we will be using our energy much more productively.



From: <goodblat@...> (Avrum Goodblat)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 23:25:47 EST
Subject: Jewish Community Networks

I noticed the recent interchange about Jewish community networks on
mail-jewish. As the home of mail-jewish, we at Shamash would like to
bring the mail-jewish community up-to-date about our Community
networking progress:

1. Some of the Detroit effort came as an indirect result of the
presentation I gave at the NJCRC Minkoff institute last summer.  We have
been in close contact with the Jewish Community Council of Detroit about
this subject.

2. Several other federations have also been meeting with us to discuss
the same possibilities.

3. We are working closely with the several national organizations (see
our Board list up on the gopher), to collect national listings of Jewish

We believe Shamash to be the most effective, lowest cost means of
providing not only a community bbs, but also the assistance and training
needed to make practical use of the system.  We are already currently
helping the following organizations develop their online virtual

Jewish Scouts
among other.

The major problem is lack of sufficient volunteers to help organize all
the information we are getting.

Avrum Goodblatt
director, Shamash


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 95 20:18:26 EST
Subject: Kashrut - v18#61

<yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein) writes:
>The post makes one believe that the Mashgiach being Lubavitch or Sfardic
>or...  would make different demands for Kashrut. In fact the Rabbi or
>Rabbis endorsing the site (restaurant) lays down the groung rules and
>the Mashgiach gives over the instructions from the Rabbi, and reports
>back to the Rabbi.  I've seen some Mashgichim that don't know much, but
>mean well. They will carry out what they are told. The Mashgiach's
>personal affiliation to a certain group doesn't change the validity of
>the Kashrut.

Yes.  But that wasn't the argument.  In the case you mention, it is
entirely possible to find a kosher establishment that the mashgiach will
not be able to eat in.  If you pass a law mandating that an
establishment must be "mehadrin" (kosher enough for the mashgiach
himself to eat there) then you're no longer certifying the establishment
to the rabbi's standards.  You're certifying it to the strictest
possible combination of the rabbi's and the mashgiach's standards.


From: <nathanl@...> (Nataniel E. Leserowitz)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 95 23:45:02 EST
Subject: Kibud Av/Aym in kiddush/zimun

Ariel Hershler writes (v.18 n.89) about his custom to mention his
father and mother in the zimun (introduction) to the grace after meals
and prepatory to saying kiddush. I would be interested to know from 
what sources he derives this custom.
The zimum before grace and the introductory "saverai" (my masters)
before kiddush are an invitation for those who wish to fulfill their
obligation to give their attention and listen to the kiddush or the 
grace after meals (either may be said aloud by a single person, and
one who listens with the intention of having his/her mitzvah fulfilled
has the mitzvah under the precept of "hears like reciter"). In my
experience, I have never heard anyone mention their parents, cohanim,
leviim or anyone else before making kiddush.

As regards grace after meals, it would seem misplaced to mention your
parents if they did not eat at the meal, since they would have no 
obligation to "bensch". In fact, a case can be made not to mention
"b'reshus" of anyone before grace. A review of the the Talmud, Tractate
Brachos 46b, 47a shows that when making the blessing over bread at the 
beginning of a meal, the host should do so. The reason is that so he may
distribute the bread according to what he has, and not put a guest in
the position of having distributed more than what the host could afford
to distribute. However, by grace after meals, a guest should lead, so
that he may be able to give a blessing to the host. The perogative of
designating the leader is the host's according to the Gemora. There is
therefore no issue of Kibud, either to a Cohan or perhaps to one's parents.
This is certainly different than the inclusion within the grace of a 
paragraph which is variable according to where you are eating. 

Nat Leserowitz
March 19, 1995


From: Finley Shapiro <Finley_Shapiro@...>
Date: 21 Mar 1995 03:00:12 U
Subject: Kiddush in Shul

Steve Albert wrote:
> I believe the Friday night kiddush in shul was instituted for the benefit
> of those visitors who would be eating in shul.

When I was a boy, we were told that the custom of saying kiddush in shul
was started in communities where there were families which could not
obtain or could not afford wine for kiddush at home.  This was still
true in at least some parts of eastern Europe before the relaxation and
then the fall of communism.  Probably one reason that the custom is so
widespread in more prosperous areas is that in many communities there
are families that do not make kiddush at home, although they can afford

Finley Shapiro


From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 07:31:40 EDT
Subject: Re: Life, Afterlife, Resurrection 18 #80

Responding to my earlier comments on Jewish belief in life after death, 
George Schneiderman said:

>Certainly, normative Judaism since at least the Talmudic era has accepted 
>the basic claim that there's something after this world.  But this is not 
>the same as saying that everything we do in this world is in preparation 
>for the next world.  We live as we must live because we are bound in a 
>covenant with our Creator to heal the world--tikkun olam.  That should be 
>what motivates us, not a selfish concern with our own future in the next 
>world.  We should worry about this world, and let God worry about the next.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last point.  Our concern has to be how we 
live in this world.  That's one of the things that makes us different from 
the non-Jews who spend much more time speculating on the nature of a life 
after death than we do.  Our limited imagination couldn't possibly do 
justice to the world to come.

As to our life in this world serving as a preparation for the world to 
come, I respectfully cite Pirkei Avos (Ethics of the Fathers) 4:21.

"Rabbi Jacob said:  This world is like a vestibule before the world to 
come; prepare yourself in the vestibule, so that you may enter the banquet 
hall."  (Philip Birnbaum translation)

NEIL PARKS  Beachwood, Ohio    <nparks@...>


From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:42:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Privacy of Convert

Eitan Fiorino writes that he received a psak to write 'ben Avraham' on his
k'tuba.  While this might be the case for a k'tuba, it would not be the case
on a get, where the person would be identified as 'ben Avraham Avinu'.  We
are much stricter in using correct identification on a get than we are on a
k'tuba, so on a get the privacy issue is superceeded by the need for accuracy
in identifying the parties of the divorce.

Eliyahu Teitz


From: Michael Lipkin <michael_lipkin@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 95 13:57:49 EST
Subject: Synagogue Politics

>From: Neil Parks 

>I doubt that there is a halachic source that prohibits women from 
>being full voting members of synagogue boards, because if there were, 
>than we'd have many shuls being in violation of halacha.

This logic is faulty as it eliminates the entire concept of Psak Halacha
(legal decision).  Of course different shuls can have opposing practices
and still both be operating within Halacha.

This issue came up in a local shul a few years ago. This shul is
basically centrist with a YU Rabbi.  The Rabbi took the question to a
Rav (a major YU figure) who decided that women could not serve as voting
members on the shul board.  This psak was for that particular
shul. Another shul could legitimately have gotten a different psak from
a different qualified Rav (or even the same Rav!) and not have been in
violation of Halacha.



From: <bobby@...> (Bobby Fogel)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 16:03:02 +0000
Subject: Trope from Sinai?

Yehuda Edelstein states:

>To the best of my knowledge the Trope (Taamei Hamikra) are from Sinai
>(Torah Sh'Baal Pe).

Then goes on to give a lenghty explanation for why we all have different
notes for the trope.  However, the fact that ashkenaz, tzephard etc..
cantilate the trope differently says nothing about when the TROPE NOTES
were instituted.  Can anyone cite a credible source for this.  Somehow
i highly doubt that this goes back to Sinai like the text of the torah
or original torah shebeal peh


End of Volume 18 Issue 91