Volume 19 Number 03
                       Produced: Tue Mar 28  7:40:12 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Ezra Dabbah]
Kitniyot Passover List
         [Nechama Nouranifar]
Oat Shemurah Matzah
         [Avi Feldblum]
Pesach & Cats - a question
         [Jack Reiner]
Shmurah Matah
         ["Bob Klein"]
         [Heather Luntz]
Siyumim Erev Pesach
         [Ed Bruckstein]
Siyyum and Loopholes
         [Adina B. Sherer]
Siyyum and loopholes
         [Yaacov Fenster]
Siyyum without minyan
         [Richard Friedman]


From: <EDABBAH@...> (Ezra Dabbah)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 19:19:58 -0500
Subject: Kitniyot

I heard today from a very reliable Rabbi that Elite chocolate produced
in Israel with corn syrup was considered kosher for Passover even for
Ashkenazim up until the mid 1950's when the rabbanut in Israel decided
to be machmeer on may kitniyot (liquid of kitniyot).

Has anyone heard of this? 


From: Nechama Nouranifar <nournfrn@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:47:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kitniyot Passover List

Does anyone know when the Sephardi (kitniyot) kossher for passover list
will be ready or how to get it.  Last year I got it too late to be of
much help.


Nechama Katan Nouranifar


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 07:39:19 -0500
Subject: Oat Shemurah Matzah

I know that there are a few people that cannot eat Wheat-based products
and there is Oat shemurah matzah available. Last year someone posted
soem of the information to the list. Someone asked me if anyone has any
information on this for this year, so if you know, please post.

Avi Feldblum
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: <jjr@...> (Jack Reiner)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 12:41:10 -0600
Subject: Pesach & Cats - a question

Shalom Y'all.

I intend to ask my LOR about this, and I would value MJ'ers opinions.

The cat food that our two cats eat exclusively contains both kitniyos
and yeast.  The food is in a pellet form and can used quite well with
a gravity-based, automatic feeder (similar to an automatic waterer - 
since the food is small pellets, it acts essentially like a fluid).  
In the past, we have used the automatic feeder for as much as ten days 
without human intervention.

The question:
If we were to fill this automatic feeder with enough food for the length
of Pesach, leave it where the cats could get to it, and then declared its 
chometz ownerless (or even explicitly sold this chometz), would this be 
halachically acceptable?

Concerning the issue of not having chometz within sight, there is no
danger of our eating _this_ chometz (the cat food) by mistake :-).  
Furthermore, we could get creative and find a place where the feeder is 
out of our sight and still accessible to the little beasts.

For reasons of cost, fleas, and emotional distress to the cats, we would 
prefer not to board the cats at the vet for the week.

Kol Tuv,


From: "Bob Klein" <KL2@...>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995  09:26:41 EST
Subject: Shmurah Matah

Last year, we bought a 1 lb. box of Cohen-Halperin machine-made shmurah
matzoh, imported from Israel by Paskesz in Brooklyn.  (I believe this is
the Paskesz Candy Co.)

The matzoh were not well-packed for a long journey and all of the ones
in our box were broken.  Since shmurah matzoh are supposed to be
unbroken, we could not use them.  After initially ignoring my complaint,
Paskesz later claimed that everyone packs shmurah matzoh that way.
Their attitude was quite unresponsive.

Three questions:

1.  Has anyone else encountered a problem with poorly-packed shmurah
matzoh (from Cohen-Halperin or elsewhere) that was broken and unusable?
How did you address the halachic and consumer issues?

2.  Is it preferable to open the box _before_ Pesach, so a new box can
be purchased in time for seder, in case the matzoh are broken?

3.  Are other brands of machine-made shmurah available on the East Coast
that are well-packed, e.g. with corrugated cardboard between each piece?
I clearly recall getting these in the past.

Any feedback will be appreciated.


From: Heather Luntz <luntz@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 22:26:46 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Siyum

In Vol 18 #82 Carl Sherer writes:
> My pre-Bar Mitzva son is on the verge of making his first siyum (on a
> seder of Mishnayos).  I was wondering whether the halachic status of a
> Kattan making a siyum is any different from that of an adult. 

I am glad this topic came up, I was looking for more general information 
on making a siyum.

Could somebody please give me a run down on what is the halachic status of 
siyum (I presume it must be more than minhag if it can overide the fast 
for a bechor), what are the elements required, (a roomate of mine 
seemed to think one needed meat, as she and a friend were told that they 
could eat meat during the nine days on making a siyum - does anybody 
know the source for this?) and in particular, is it something that 
may be done or is it something that must be done? eg if a person was 
learning on a desert island where there were no food/people/ whatever 
else is required, would he have failed to do a positive mitzva and 
would it be preferable that he not learn, say, the last portion (how 
much?) of an mesechta rather than not have a siyum on a completed 
mesechta, or is it just a nice thing to do, so that if a person ignored 
the occasion even when it would be easy to make one that would be OK also?

And if there is a postitive obligation on a man to make a siyum, would 
there be any corresponding obligation on a woman?

I suppose I should declare my interest here. The dafi yomi is heading 
towards the end of Baba Basra, and that has set me wondering what my 
obligations are. The truth is that I would rather *not* have a siyum, for 
the simple reason that there is literally nobody here in Australia that  
I could think of that I would want to invite. Neither do I particularly 
want to consult my LOR unless it is really necessary. He is very 
special, but I don't know how he would respond to these new fangled ideas 
I picked up in America. - See I came to the daf-yomi in a very funny way. 
It started when I was still living in New York, and i was dating a guy 
very seriously. This guy (although he had smicha) had been out of real 
learning for a while and was trying to get back into doing it on a 
regular basis. So I suggested why didn't he do the daf-yomi as a way of 
getting continuity. So he did, but he insisted on giving me an inyan by 
inyan run down on the day's daf, (this he said made it more 
real for him). And, well, torah she ba'al peh it may be, but I was 
finding concentration on and taking in completely unfamiliar material 
orally, not to mention finding something intelligent to say on the 
subject quite a strain,  so after 
several weeks of this, I insisted we sit down with the text. So we were 
learning it together, and when i had to come back to Australia, we were 
still pretty serious, and it was supposed to be some sort of kesher 
between us. So we got all these tapes from dial a daf, and although i was 
pretty sceptical about getting anything out of it (or being able to make 
any kind of go of it at all), I allowed myself to be persuaded to give it a 
try. So i established a routine of doing it on the way to and from work, 
and if I had questions we were in contact by email.
 And then - well, he decided there were other opportunities in New York 
and he wasn't interested in continuing anything with Australia,  and 
somehow, amid all the heartbreak and the sense of the world 
falling apart, the daf seemed like one of the few constants in my life, 
so I just kept going. And in many ways it has turned into the most 
rewarding and fulfilling part of my day. It is strange, but the daily 
chance to really stretch and use my mind in a Jewish context (and not 
just in the secular context that my work as a lawyer requires) has made me 
feel much more unified and whole than I have since i started University 
and made the split between my mind (alive and challenged in a secular 
context, wandering freely from idea to idea) and my 
heart/spirit/actions that were enmeshed in the daled amos of the halacha. 
Somehow the fact that i top and tail a day spent analysing and 
considering secular legal principles with a chance to really use my mind 
in a Jewish context (and I do find the tapes challenging, even though 
I have to let a lot of questions go - you really do skate over the 
surface a lot), brings the two together and integrates my personality 
(although at times it tends to make my work seem very colourless in 
comparison, and feeds this ache to throw work away entirely and go off 
and learn full time, which is not a very practical fantasy I admit).

But still, i am very ambivalent about the concept of a siyum. The last 
time/only other time when i could have made a siyum, at the end of Baba 
Metzia, I was still hoping that at least he would phone, and when he 
didn't I just crawled into bed and cried myself to sleep. So at base i 
guess I am wondering whether it is OK to pretend that i didn't notice 
this one, and just go straight onto Sanhedrin (but while i am doing that, 
I might as well learn something about what the concept of siyum entails).




From: Ed Bruckstein <bruckstn@...>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:40:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Siyumim Erev Pesach

One does not need a minyan for a siyum.  One does not even have to hear
the siyum.  One needs only to be invited to attend the meal of a M'Sayem
(the individual making the Siyum) which is a Seudas Mitzva.

Hence, if the poster of the original question can get someone who is
ready to make a siyum (e.g., someone learning Daf Yomi Bava Basra) to
wake up before you leave to the airport and have him finish the Mesechta
(tractate), you may join in his meal and avoid the fast.

I've heard about listening to siyumim over the phone or the telephone,
but that's not an actual voice, and you're not sharing in the M'sayem's
Seuda (meal).


From: <adina@...> (Adina B. Sherer)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 95 23:28:37 IST
Subject: Re: Siyyum and Loopholes

There's still time! Horayos is only fourteen blatt - at a blatt a day
you could finish it before Pesach! Another possibility is Megilla, which 
although it's about 32 blatt has lots of great Aggadita which goes
fairly quickly.

-- Carl Sherer (I can empathize with you....).
Adina and Carl Sherer You can reach us both at:	<adina@...>

From: <fenster@...> (Yaacov Fenster)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 12:01:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Siyyum and loopholes

> >From: J. Bailey <jbailey@...>
> I'm not a proponent of what have be called here "halachik loopholes", but 
> I sort of need to utilize one soon. I'm a b'chor, and usually attend a 
> siyum erev pesach to absolve myself of the fasting requirement (this is a 
> hypocritical act, as it is the one I usually cite when referring to the 
> ridiculous "outs" we have; if Hashem wanted us to fast, it takes some 
> chutzpah for us to try to avoid the commemoration. But I digress...) 
> Anyway, this year I have a 6:30 am flight Friday morning from NY to CA, 
> and there is no way to find 10 men for a siyum. Are there any other ways 
> to get out of fasting, perhaps something about fasting on a Friday? As 
> long as I have somehow accepted the premise of these loopholes, I'm open 
> to pretty much anything legitimate.

Why not start learning a "Masechet" now and finish it on the flight ?
While you may not have the "Berov Am Hadrat Melech" (A king is honored
with many people) with a quorum, but you still have the festive meal in
honor of finishing the "Masechet" which is the main point of this

% Yaacov Fenster		(603)-881-1154  DTN 381-1154
% <y.fenster@...>	      fenster@world.std.com
% <fenster@...>   Yaacov.Fenster@zko.mts.dec.com 


From: Richard Friedman <RF@...>
Date: 22 Mar 1995 14:17:14 GMT
Subject: Siyyum without minyan

Jay Bailey asked (MJ 18:94) about the problem of having a siyyum
b'chorim when he could not arrange to be with a minyan.  Does one need a
minyan in order to have a siyyum?  If not, might the solution be to
arrange to complete study of a text appropriate to be observed with a
siyyum?  My understanding is that there are opinions that one can do
this not only over a tractate of Gemara, or an order of Mishna, but also
over a book of Tanach, or even a tractate of Mishna.

Richard Friedman


End of Volume 19 Issue 3