Volume 19 Number 15
                       Produced: Mon Apr  3  6:58:28 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Crock Pots (2)
         [Lon Eisenberg, Mike Paneth]
         [Eli Turkel]
Fish & Meat
         ["Lon Eisenberg"]
Monitors, et al.
         [Zvi Weiss]
Name without kedusha?
         [Joshua W. Burton]
Shalom Bias vs. Halakhah
         [Karen Stein]
Should Jews eat veal?
         [Richard Schwartz]
Techum Shabbos
         [Yisroel Rosenblum]


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:19:07 +0000
Subject: Crock Pots

Eli Trukel wrote:
>     There is a story that Rav Auerbach in his last written psak
>prohibited the use of electric crock pots on shabbat because of problems
>with "hatmanah" (covering foods to keep heat in). Does anyone have more
>details and the opinion of other poskim?

We discussed this in our halakha class last Friday.  Rabbi Rubanowitz
went through Rav Auerback's responsum and found it confusing.  He also
discussed other sources about "hatmanah" (e.g. Mishnah Berurah).  There
are apparently a number of opinions.  One point of confusion is whether
the top needs to be "wrapped" for "hatmanah" to take place (which is not
the case in a crock pot).
 Another point of confusion is how much of the surface touching the
insert must be providing heat (since the whole problem of "hatmanah"
from erev shabbath is only in the case where heat is added, not just

I also heard that the psak was given for a specific type of crock pot
(what did it look like?), not for all crock pots.  IMHO, R. Auerback
didn't have a chance to put this particular responsum into the final
form he wanted.  I suspect we will never know the answer to some of
these questions (about what he intended to say in the responsum).

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205

From: <mikep@...> (Mike Paneth)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 21:11:35 +1000
Subject: Crock Pots

Several years ago the question on the use of crock pots was raised in 
Melbourne.  At that time crock pots were a new fad and consisted of a 
ceramic bowl which had an electric element wrapped around it, in ONE 
NON-SEPERABLE unit.  After a lot of discussion it was ruled that it was NOT 
allowed to use this type of crock pot, irrespective if it had a fixed heat 
setting (low, med or high) or a thermostat.

A second type of unit then came onto the market which had a REMOVEABLE 
ceramic bowl insert.  The rabbonim ruled that it was allowed to use this 
type of crock pot use on Shabbos. I have heard that Rabbi Vosner of 
Bnei-Brak has permitted it, as well as Rabbi Beck of the Adass Israel here 
in Melbourne.

It is preferable however to use the type which had fixed settings than to 
use the thermostat type.  Also it is required to cover the temperature 
control with tape, so that it cannot be adjusted. 

You will still need to ask your LOR what the p'sak is in your community (it 
is the right of each individual rov to permit or forbid, depending how he 
sees fit, in all circumstances).  

This question has highlighted to me the danger of asking a question in 
public and not fully stating all the information regarding the question 
asked.  Because there are several possible rulings, depending on what type 
of crock pot is used, people may get the wrong idea and accidentally, G-D 
forbid, commit a melocho on Shabbos.

Mike Paneth
Melbourne Australia


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 11:28:58 +0300
Subject: Crockpot

     I thank everyone who sent me private replies about the use of a
crockpot on shabbat. I am including various replies that I received.  I
have removed references to the senders since I did not ask anyone for
permission to use their names. Apologees to anyone not properly
credited.  If anyone has Rabbi Blumenkantz's book and would be willing
to post furthermore detailed information that he gives it would be
greatly appreciated.

Eli Turkel

Most of the stuff that I have seen on crock pots is makil.  No one 
mentions hatmana as a problem until this last teshuva of Rav Auerbach.  
It was really a wild one.  For a list of the makilim, see Menuchat Ahava 
and Yalkut Yosef 4:4.  I have not looked it up now, but my memory is that 
Shemirat shabbat is makil in a footnote.
Rav Feivel Cohen claims that there is no problem with the crockpot.

Rav Feivel Cohen is the author of the "Badei Hashulchan" which is probably
the most important of the seforim on Hilchos Niddah that has been written
in the last 50-100 years.  when I was in EY last summer I noticed in a
number of places shelves with large numbers of the sefer and I was told
that it's widely used for the study of these halachos.  He's also written
volumes on Hilchos mikvaos and Basar B'chalav and is considered one of the
prominent Morei Horaah in America. The son of a friend of mine once went
to Rav Elyashiv with a she'elah and Rav Elyashiv asked him why he came to
him - since he was from America why didn't he go to Rav Feivel Cohen?
Rav Feivel told me that when he was in EY about two months ago he discussed
the crockpot issue with R S.Z. z"l and thought he had convinced him that
the portion which extends above the rim should be considered a significant
non-mutman area but that apparently Rav S.Z. later changed his mind.
I can't comment on what most poskim hold since I don't know that they've
publicly discussed the matter.  I do know that Rav Feivel, who is a big
medakdek in mitzvot and yiras shomayim,was in no hurry to publicly announce
Rav S.Z.'s issur despite his enormous regard for him.  When he did, he
reviewed the issue and then suggested the possibiity of raising the pot
for those who wished to be concerned about the issur.  It sounded like he
was saying that he still didn't agree with it but it was simple enough to
show respect for a gadol.  In any event, when I next have a chance I'll
ask him for specifics.
Rav Blumenkratz's on Pesach has an extended discussion of crock pots
including model numbers with possible problems.

I am not at home (where the book is) and I am going away today for a week...
In Blumenkrantz he actually gives model numbers when he states which ones
he thinks need a blech and which are troublesome al pe halacha...
Are you in Israel ??? The book comes out of Far Rockaway in NY every year
and is the biggest compilation of what of everything is chometz or not ....
My brother just arrived from Eretz Yisroel. He spoke with Rav Noibert 
(Shmiras Shabbos Kihilchosoh) earlier this week about this exact item.  
My brother claims that when the original psak went out from Rav Shlomo 
Zalman zt"l, Rav Noibert argued on it and felt it was mutar. He had 
planned to speak to Rav Shlomo Zalman when he had improved in his 
condition. Until this time, he told his talmidim "kvar horeh zaken" and 
did not want to issue a psak against Rav Shlomo Zalman until he was able 
to talk to him.  My brother who learns in Kol Torah says that one of the 
maspidim in the yeshiva mentioned that Rav Shlomo Zalman after hearing 
the extreme implications of the psak reexamined the issue and could not 
find a "mokom l'hatir".  
Rav Neubert, this Monday morning told my brother that he spoke with Rav 
Elyashiv who indicated that if something is inserted under the insert so 
that it is raised above the top of the heat producing sides it would not 
be a problem.  He also said that he was looking into the actual way the 
pot works and that if it only gives out heat from the sides and not the 
bottom it would not be problematic.  
He further said that if one is served food cooked in such a crockpot it 
is permissable to eat it. My  brother claims that in the yeshiva some 
bochurim and one of the the rabbonim in Yerushalayim were claiming that 
Rav Sholmo Zalman forbade it to be eaten b'dieved.

When I discussed it in yeshiva here, the general assumption was that 
since there is a space between the outer pot and the insert there would 
be no problem of hatmanah.  This week when I purchased Rav Blumenkrantz's 
sefer on Pesach I noticed that he said the same thing as a "dovor poshut"


From: "Lon Eisenberg" <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:08:07 +0000
Subject: Fish & Meat

Ellen Golden wrote about "zara`ath" being leprosy, which has know
causes, none of which is eating meat & fish together.  I believe to
conceive of "zara`ath" as leprosy is incorrect: Leprosy is a physical
ailment; "zara`ath" is a spirit"ual ailment (for which a cohen's
pronouncement is required).  It is normally associated with speaking
"lashon hara`" (evil talk about someone), but perhaps, there are other
possible causes (eating meat & fish together?).  Of course, we must also
remember that our tradition states that today there is no "zara`ath",
which brings us back to "why can't we eat meat and fish together?".

By the way, I wouldn't infer that because the goyim (are allowed to) eat
meat & fish together that it is healthy to do so, even physically.  Is
the current traditional Western (American) life style healthy?

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 21:49:40 -0500
Subject: Monitors, et al.

For whatever it is worth, Dr. [Rabbi] Herman Presby was giving a Shiur
at our Shule and noted that when the question of G-d's name and a
computer monitor came up, he quoted an answer (whose source I do *not*
remember) that since a monitor is constantly refreshed, so shutting off
the system is simply preventing the ongoing refreshment of the
screen... Preventing such "refreshment" is not considered "erasing"....



From: <burton@...> (Joshua W. Burton)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 16:34:45 -0500
Subject: Name without kedusha?

Shlomo Grafstein quotes Rav Dovid Feinstein to the effect that

> The Divrei Yechezkiel said that if one writes the holy name
> not for the sake of sanctity then there is no prohibition.

This raises a curious question in my mind in the other direction.  There
are many editions of Tana"kh that are produced for purely scholarly
reasons, often by editors who make their own secular intent explicit in
the introductions.  (Indeed, it might be argued that even the `Old
Testament' of a non-Jewish Bible, printed for religious reasons by
non-Jews, was produced without `kedusha' in the intent, though here
there are obviously many other issues involved!)  So...other than
obvious problems of appearance and ma'arit ayin, is there any reason why
I cannot keep an Anchor, Douay, Jerusalem, or New Revised Standard
Bible, possibly with the last third cut out, next to the toilet for
`light reading'?  Can I use it if I run out of toilet paper?  If it
happens to be in Hebrew, with or without trope, can I review this
Saturday's portion...provided my own intent is not to `learn'?

Right now the computer on whose hard disk I have Tana"kh and an English
edition (The Authorized, or King James, I believe) is not portable, but
in five years it will be.  How respectfully do I have to start treating
my laptop toys?

Die Eleganz soll man den |=====================================================
Schneidern ueberlassen.  | Joshua W Burton  (401)435-6370  <burton@...>
      -- Paul Ehrenfest  |=====================================================


From: <KS1800@...> (Karen Stein)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 23:58:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shalom Bias vs. Halakhah

I grew up in a conservative home but in the past year I have become 
drastically more observant in my religious practices. With the upcoming
Pesach holiday, I find myself in a dilemma. My family always spends the 
first seder at the home of very close friends across town. The problem 
arises when I need to return home either after the seder (or if I sleep
over, the next day). It is about a fifteen minute drive and would take
at least 1 1/2 hours to walk. 

My question is, is it better for me to keep the peace within my home and
with my parents, or avoid driving home in order to keep both Shabbos and
the Yom Tov?

Karen Stein


From: Richard Schwartz <SCHWARTZ@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:09:52 
Subject: Should Jews eat veal?

     I wonder if anyone can bring me and others up to date on
developments related to the production and consumption of veal?
     I understand that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein (ZT"L), in his Igrot 
Moshe , Even Haezer, Part 4 (B'nai B'rach, 1985), end of no. 92, 164-
165) ruled that:
1. Jews should not raise veal calves in the current fashion (they are 
taken away from their mothers after a day or so of nursing, and then 
placed in small, individual wooden crates, about 5 feet long by 2 
feet wide, deprived of solid food, and fed a high-calorie, iron-free 
liquid diet, in order to produce a very tender, white flesh.  Because 
of its narrow space, in the final weeks of its life, the animal is 
unable to turn around, stretch its limbs, adopt normal lying 
positions, or groom himself. The calves yearn so much for dietary 
iron that they would lick their own urine if able to turn around.)
2. Jews should generally not purchase veal since, because of the way 
they are raised, veal calves are weak and sickly, and thus, ""pious 
people should not eat from such calves even if their intestines are 
checked", because their is a high probability that the animal is not 
     Since I have noticed that veal is still frquently served at 
simchas and sold in kosher butcher shops, I am wondering:
1. if anyone more knowledgable than me can add to or correct the 
above brief summary;
2. if anyone knows of other responsa or other writings on this issue;
3. if anyone knows if conditions re the raising of veal have changed 
recently, and if this has resulted in a change in the Jewish view of 
this issue.
     On a related issue, has there been any responsa or other rabbinic
consideration of the eating of "pate de fois gras", since there is
horrible cruelty related to the forced feeding of geese and ducks in
order to create this "delicacy".
     Best wishes,
          Richard (Schwartz)


From: <Yisroel1@...> (Yisroel Rosenblum)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 23:01:29 -0500
Subject: Techum Shabbos

I know that the halacha states that Techum Shabbos (The farthest a
person can walk away from city limits on Shabbos or Yom Tov) is 2000
amos cubits.  It is also known that if suburbs come out from a large
city and the houses are reasonably close together along the road, it is
considered to be one city for these purposes.

My question is, can we poskin by this on a regular basis? This halacha
was enstated in the time of small shtetls that were far apart.  Can we
use this ruling to be able to walk as much as 10 miles on a Shabbos, or
was the intent of the halacha only to tell us what is a reasonable
distance to walk on Shabbos? Or can we poskin by this only as a loophole
when it is very necessary.



End of Volume 19 Issue 15