Volume 19 Number 24
                       Produced: Mon Apr 10  1:36:54 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arba Bonim, The Four Sons
         [Mike Grynberg]
Beginning Seder before Motzaei Shabbat
         [Jerrold Landau]
Cat Foods for Use on Pesach
         [Michael R. Stein]
Chol Hamoed
         [Jeff Mandin]
Individual Mekhiras Khometz
         [Shimon Schwartz]
Loopholes/ Ta'anis Bechorim
         [Yehudah Prero]
Mutual funds, Stocks during Peseach - v19#16
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
Peanuts on Pesach
         [Jeff Kuperman]
Pesach & cats
         [Yapha Schochet]
Pet Food
         [Sheryl Haut]
Sources on Siyum and not Fasting
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Starch in Paper
         [David Charlap]
The 1st Cup
         [Lon Eisenberg]


From: Mike Grynberg <spike@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 07:25:44 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Arba Bonim, The Four Sons

while perusing the haggada on shabbat, my wife and i came up with a few
questions. the first was when the hagada refers to the chacham, (the
wise son), the answer given inthe haggada is not the same one the torah
tells us to give. ( i believe the referenc in the tora is in sefer
devarim, i don't have one by me sorry).Why the change in responses, and
how is it justified since the tora tells us very clearly to tell our
children the answer the tora provides. Althouth there are similarities,
why not just give the answer tohe tora gives?

As for the second son, the rasha, wicked son, (which i believe is
refered to in sefer shemot, sorry no exact references.) the question and
answer do not correspond at all to what the tora tells us?

Any ideas?

chag sameach
mike grynberg


From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 09:22:05 EDT
Subject: Beginning Seder before Motzaei Shabbat

Sam Duchoeny asks about starting the Seders early, either on Motzaei
Shabbat, or on Friday night.  Neither Seder can be started before the
time of "tzeit hakochavim", the time that three stars come out.  This is
derived from the fact that the mitzva of matza must be performed at
night.  All other mitzvas of the Seder night, whether from the Torah
(matzah and haggada), or rabbinic (maror, arba kosot, hallel), must be
performed at night.  Since the first thing that one does at the Seder is
make Kiddush and drink the first of the four cups, the Seder cannot be
started before the time of "tzeit hakochavim".  However, on the first
night, it is permitted to daven maariv somewhat earlier.  Thus, one can
daven, and get home from shul, and be ready to start the Seder
immediately at the earliest possible time.

Jerrold Landau


From: Michael R. Stein <mike@...>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:13:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Cat Foods for Use on Pesach

For the past several years, the Baltimore va'ad has made available a
list of commercial cat foods which may be used on Pesach.  Several local
va'ads, such as the CRC in Chicago, have copies of this list as well.
This year the list includes many varieties of Fancy Feast, and even some

Not every flavor is ok; you need to get the list by calling them.  The
CRC's number is 312/588-1600; I don't have the Baltimore va'ad's number
handy -- it is in the 410 area code.

Mike Stein


From: Jeff Mandin <jeff@...>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 13:19:18 -0400
Subject: Chol Hamoed

Akiva Miller writes:
>In general, all of the activities which are prohibited on Shabbos and
>Yom Tov are also forbidden on Chol Hamoed, unless one of several
>exemptions applies.

This has appeared in a couple of English books, but is contradicted by
the gemara in Moed Katan 2b "bishlema melacha d'mishum tircha hu"(see
Rashi there and Rashi on the mishna 2a).  I have never seen a Hebrew
source that phrases the prohibition the way the English books do.  Just
from looking at the mishnayot in Moed Katan it seems apparent that the
sorts of work being discussed are quite different from those in Shabbat.

A posek in my neighborhood, R. Emanuel Gettinger, told me directly that
melachet YomTov is _not_ generally prohibited on Chol Ha-moed(and was a
bit impatient w/ the suggestion that it might be).  I heard similarly
from R. Yosef Weiss of YU and R. Raphael Schorr, Rosh Yeshiva of Or
Sameach in Monsey.

If what you're saying were true, it would be prohibited to turn off
electric lights unless a major loss was involved - I have never noticed
Rabbis to be concerned about this.

As Akiva and David Katz say, we do need to treat Chol Ha-moed as a Moed
and learn the relevant (and detailed) laws, but it seems that this is
one misconception that is becoming more popular.

- Jeff


From: <schwartz@...> (Shimon Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:58:09 +0500
Subject: Re: Individual Mekhiras Khometz

>From: Melech Press <PRESS@...>

  On the other hand, it is not true that a sale through your LOR has no
  disadvantages compared to a direct sale by you to a non-jew in which
  you physically transfer all your khometz to the actual control of the
  buyer (e.g. give it to him, bring it to his home).  According to a
  substantial number of poskim through the generations the type of
  mekhiras khometz that we make today (mekhira klollis) in which neither
  the items sold nor control of their location pass to the non-Jew
  entails violation of issurei Torah.

Some (though not all) rabbanim whom I have used for mechirat chametz
require that the new owner of the sold chametz have either physical
access to the chametz he has bought, or the right to physical access.
I don't know whether such access is explicitly part of the shtar
[contract].  I do know that if I will be away during chag, I need to
arrange that my house keys be available for this person to reach his
chametz if he so desires, and I need to specify the location of the
-keys- on the form that I fill out.


From: <DaPr@...> (Yehudah Prero)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 22:41:40 -0400
Subject: Loopholes/ Ta'anis Bechorim

There has been some catagorization of using a siyum as a way out of
fasting on Ta'anis Bechorim as a "legal loophole." There is an
intersting mention of this custom in Aruch HaShulchan Orech Chaim
470:5. There, the Aruch HaShulchan states that "...now, and for some
number of generations, there are those that are totally lenient by the
Ta'anis Bechorim, and that is using a Siyum on a Mesechta, and not only
the learner (does not fast) but the Bechorim who are gathered with the
one making the Siyum eat as well.This custom has spread throughout all
the countries, and I do not know from where people came to be so
lenient, unless it is because the generations have (physically) weakened
and there is much toil on Erev Pesach, and the eating of the Maror is
also not good for one's health, and therefore people consider themselves
as if they are not able to fast, and as this fast is mentioned in the
Gemora, and even in the Yerushalmi the end result is that one does not
have to fast, and it is merely a custom from Mes' Sofrim, therefore the
Chachmai HaDor did not protest this, and the matter needs further
looking in to."

Hope this is of some interest, and Have a Gut Yomtov.
Yehudah Prero


From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 17:39:55 +0200
Subject: Mutual funds, Stocks during Peseach - v19#16

It's quit common to own stock, in Israel or the US. Holding shares does
that make you a partner? What about desecrating the Shabbos? I think the
Shulchan Aruch brings down an example if a Jew has chometz by a non-Jew
or vice versa.  Who has the Isur on Peseach. It says that the one who is
responsible for it, if it is damaged or lost, he has the Isur of having
the Chometz. Another aspect is if the shareholder has a say in matters,
voting rights. Avoiding any possible problem, can be done by including
all these shares in the sale of Chametz before Peseach.

Peseach Kasher Vsameach
Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: <Jkupe@...> (Jeff Kuperman)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:18:45 -0400
Subject: Peanuts on Pesach

Zvi Weiss asked about the source in Igros Moshe for eating peanuts on Pesach.
It is in Orach Chayyim Vol. 3. #63, p. 370.
I have also been told by R' Moshe's son-in-law, Rabbi MD Tendler, that R'
Moshe gave out peanuts at the seder to keep the kiddies occupied.
Chag Kasher V'Sameach.


From: Yapha Schochet <YAPHA@...>
Date: Sun,  9 Apr 95 11:14 +0300
Subject: Pesach & cats

> Be interested to read other postings.
> Laurie Cohen
> <Laurie_Solomon@...>

My cats *love* Pesach because they get to eat tunafish instead of
their old boring cat food.  When I feed them tuna, I crumble some
matzah into their bowls, pour the water from the tuna can onto the
matzah and then put the tuna on top. By the time they eat down to the
matzah it's soaked in tuna flavored water and they gobble it up.

My cats will also eat hard boiled eggs, cheese, and bits of potato and
other cooked vegetables. This would not be a healthful year round diet
for cats, but feeding them this way for a week seems to do them no
harm and it does keep them happy over Pesach.

Yapha Schochet


From: Sheryl Haut <0006665205@...>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 16:56 EST
Subject: Pet Food

    In last week's Jewish Press there was an ad for kosher lePesach cat
and dog food. It does contain kitniot but has been approved by Rabbi
Blumenkrantz and Rabbi Aumen.
    I unfortunately lost the number, but I'm sure it will be in this
week's edition.
                                      Sheryl Haut


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 08:23:35 +0000
Subject: Sources on Siyum and not Fasting

Someone recently posted that if a first-born misses the actual "siyum"
erev Pesah, but gets there while the "se`udah" [eating part] is still
going on, that he can eat and not fast.  Rabbi Rubanowitz (Har Nof) said
he used to also "know" this, but that there is apparently no source for
this.  Could the original poster give a source.

This reminds me of my recent post about "knowing" that on Purim that the
2 items you send must have 2 different blessings.

To digress slightly, it also reminds me of a recent discussion in our Friday
morning class.  There was a discussion about covering the halah when making
kiddush.  The story about the halah "being embarrassed" was brought up, to
which I replied that I didn't really care for that explanation, preferring the
more down to earth explanation that it was because the blessing for bread
preceded that of wine.  One of the students said that the only reason mentioned
was the embarrassement reason.  I pointed out that the "Shulhan `Arukh" makes
it clear that bread precedes wine.  I then brought up the similar situation of
a Shabbath morning kiddush where cake (not bread) was served, pointing out that
it must be covered for the same reason.  One of the students said something
like "But I've been to many kiddushes and nobody ever covered the cake, not
even the hassidim." I pointed out that you don't do things based on what
"everyone else" does; you do them based on Shulhan `Arukh [or another valid
source].  I reitereated that the cake had to be covered and the rabbi giving
the class agreed with me (much to the student's surprise).  BTW, if you go to
kiddush at Rabbi Tendler's shul (Monsey), you'll clearly see the cake covered.

I also don't buy the argument: "But in Europe they did ...".  Europe is
not a valid source.

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 12:01:27 EDT
Subject: Starch in Paper

Is starch, by itself, considered chametz?  I woul think that, just like
wheat flour, it only becomes chametz if exposed to water for 18 minutes.

(Perhaps this is not true.  The process of extracting starch from wheat
may involve water, which would produce chametz.  If this is the case,
ignore the rest of this message)

Anyway, if dry starch has the status of wheat flour - the potential to
become chametz, but not really chametz - then what is the big deal over
having paper plates?  True, it would be problematic if you'd put hot,
moist food on them, but they shouldn't pose any problem for dry food
(like eating a piece of matzoh or something).

Keeping this in mind, it would explain why the matzoh bakers have no
problem rolling it on brown paper.  The starch in the paper wouldn't
become chametz until 18 minutes after the dough touches it.  Since the
flour for the matzoh is mixed with water a minute or so before it's put
on the paper, and the whole process finishes within 18 minutes, no
chametz could end up in the matzoh.  The starch in the paper wouldn't
become chametz until after the matzoh is baked.  The paper is discarded
before the next batch of matzoh is made, so any chametz produced from
the first run wouldn't contaminate the next.


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 16:57:55 +0000
Subject: The 1st Cup

Although you meet your obligation for each cup by drinking most of the
cup, which can hold as little as a "revi`ith" (about 80 ml, depending
according to which measurement you go), it is really preferable to drink
at least an entire "revi`ith" for the first cup.  The reason for this is
that you are supposed to have kiddush bemaqom seudah [in the place of
your meal].  Besides being in the same place, it needs to be at the same
time; the accepted time gap is 1/2 hr.
 Since few of us will reach the eating of mazah within a half hour of
kiddush, we should make a "meal" out of wine.  One needs a revi`ith to
do so.

Hag kasher wesameah,
Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


End of Volume 19 Issue 24