Volume 19 Number 28
                       Produced: Tue Apr 11  6:39:55 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arba Banim -- the four sons
         [Jerrold Landau]
Earliest time for Kidush
         [Arthur J Einhorn]
Hol Hamo`ed
         [Lon Eisenberg]
kasher li'Peasch kitniyot?
         [Zal Suldan]
Passover [seder before shabbos starts/ends]
         [Rabbi Chananya Yom Tov Lipa Rosenblum]
Reclining at the seder
         [Rabbi Chananya Yom Tov Lipa Rosenblum]
Sium - Erev Peseach
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
The 1st Cup
         [Avi Feldblum]
Wicked Son
         [Lon Eisenberg]


From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 09:16:32 EDT
Subject: Arba Banim -- the four sons

Mike Grynberg asks why the answers to the four sons as given in the
Haggada do not correspond to the answers given in the Torah.  There are
many explanations for this, and the topic could be the subject of
lengthly Divrei Torah.  Here are a few thoughts.

 1. You will notice that in the answers for the chacham (wise son) and
the rasha (wicked son) in the Haggada, the language of 'af' (you should
'even' say to him) is used.  This implies that the answer given in the
Torah should be given, as well as elaborated on as described in the
Haggada.  I.e. it is taken as a given that the answer in the Torah
should be given, and the job of the Haggada is to tell us how to
elaborate.  The answer for the Tam (simple son) and the Sheeino Yodea
Lishol (son who does not know how to ask) are given as they are in the
Torah, as the answers to these sons must be kept brief, and do not
require elaboration.
 The answer to the chacham clearly indicates that elaboration is
required, as the Haggada basically tells us that one must teach him all
the laws of Pesach.
 2. The answer to the rasha in the Torah includes a reference to Karban
Pesach.  The Haggada was written after the destruction of the Beit
Hamikdash (Holy Temple), and the answers given to the four sons (and the
Haggada in general, with the exception of the section of Rabban
Gamliel), minimizes the Korban Pesach (Paschal offering).  The answers
in the Torah were relevant to the time of the Beit Hamikdash, but when
the questioner asks his question at a post-exilic Seder, an answer
relevant to the current status of the Seder (which is not an ideal Seder
as it does not have Korban Pesach) must be given.  Note as well that our
four questions are different as they were in the time of the Beit
Hamikdash, when a question on the Karban Pesach was included (see
Rambam, hilchot Chametz Umatza, for the text of the four questions
during the time of the Beit Hamikdash).

These are just a few thoughts.  There are many more explanations for this
phenomenon.  Chag Kasher Vesameach,

Jerrold Landau


From: Arthur J Einhorn <0017801@...>
Date: 10 Apr 1995 11:55:11 GMT
Subject: Earliest time for Kidush

>Jerrold Landau in v19 #24 "Since the first thing that one does at the
>Seder is make Kiddush and drink the first of the four cups, the Seder
>cannot be started before the time of "tzeit hakochavim".  However, on
>the first night, it is permitted to daven maariv somewhat earlier.
>Thus, one can daven, and get home from shul, and be ready to start the
>Seder immediately at the earliest possible time."

Two years ago I asked Rabbi Feivel Cohen Shlita for the earliest time to
begin the seder for the benefit of a guest who was ill. He answered 45
minutes after shkiya.
 Ahron Einhorn


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:41:44 +0000
Subject: Hol Hamo`ed

Jeff Mandin <jeff@...> refuted what Akiva Miller wrote:
>In general, all of the activities which are prohibited on Shabbos and
>Yom Tov are also forbidden on Chol Hamoed, unless one of several
>exemptions applies.

My understanding agrees with Akiva.  I disagree with the example that Jeff

>If what you're saying were true, it would be prohibited to turn off
>electric lights unless a major loss was involved - I have never noticed
>Rabbis to be concerned about this.

A major loss is not required to allow work on hol hamo'ed, any loss will
 Clearly, leaving a light burning when not needed causes a loss.  Also,
if you want the room to be dark (for sleeping), then you are also
allowed to turn out the light because of a need for the holiday.

Most of what we do during hol hamo`ed that is probhibited on Shabbath
and Yom Tov is probably for one of the above 2 reasons (loss or need for
the holiday).
 The other possible reason to allow work during hol hamo`ed is for the
needs of the public (opening your retail business, collecting garbage,
working as a telephone operator, etc., etc.).

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: <z-suldan@...> (Zal Suldan)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 02:18:59 -0500
Subject: kasher li'Peasch kitniyot?

With Pesach soon upon us, let me open a topic that we started to hint
upon last year and I hope someone can enlighten me more on this since
right now I'm pretty confused...

Last year, Harry Weiss, Yosef Bechoffer (my apologies to others I didn't
include), and I were discussing, first, whether mei-"chametz" could
become chametz or not. And then, even if they could become chametz,
could one make oil from those grains in such a fashion that is kasher
le'Pesach? From the discussion, it seemed that it should be possible to
do so, after all, from those grains, we make "bread" that is kasher
le'Pesach (Matzoh!!) so certainly using the same restrictions during
processing, we should be able to make wheat oil, for example. The
problem, and this was where the discussion petered out, was more a
question of practicality as to whether one could actually produce enough
oil from chametz-potential grain.

So... let me bring this discussion back, but on a slightly different
topic.  What about kitniyot? Why can we not produce kitniyot products in
a manner that is kasher le'Pesach?  In the same way that we can produce
matzoh from wheat, let me go harvest corn in the same way, watch it the
same way, and then produce kasher li'Pesach corn meal, corn starch, corn
syrup, corn oil!  (Just imagine the market!)

Basically, it seems to me we have here a legitimate method for dealing
with a torah-level restriction (making wheat into kasher le'Peasch
products) but one that is still not used for rabbinic-level restrictions
(kitniyot).  Basically, we're enforcing a mid'rabanan more strictly than
we're enforcing the parallel mid'oraitah. What's going on here?

A preliminary explanation that I thought of is that the rabbinic
restriction really was meant to include the chametz-grains also but
there were other reasons why the rabbanan were forced to exclude those
grains from the gezairah and only enforce it on the mid'rabanan. Maybe
we might say that since there IS a mitzvah achilat matzoh, we MUST make
matzoh, but since there is no mitzvah achilat cornbread, we have no
right to make cornbread. Now this would be fine except for two
things. First, we then go ahead and use matzoh meal for everything under
the sun, and besides, the matzoh meal we use wouldn't have been kasher
for the mitzvah anyway!  Second, examples like shofar and lulav on
Shabbos seem to contradict this.  Why are we worried that someone will
carry a shofar, also a mitzvah di'oraitah, into a reshut harabim on
Shabbos but we're not worried that someone will make chametz with wheat?
If anything, like shofar, the rabbinic restriction should instead rule
out the use of wheat products on Pesach altogether (or, vice
versa... like chametz, the torah level mitzvah should preclude the
rabbinic restriction on the shofar's transport).

Please... can someone help me understand what going on here?

Chag Kasher vi'Sameach to all...

Tri-Institutional MD/PhD Program - Department of Cell Biology and Genetics
Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center / Cornell University Medical College
Replies to: <Z-Suldan@...>    or   ZSuldan@Stud.Med.Cornell.edu


From: <Yisroel1@...> (Rabbi Chananya Yom Tov Lipa Rosenblum)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:08:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Passover [seder before shabbos starts/ends]

> This year the second seddar falls on a Saturday. I would like to
> know if your able to start the seddar before Motzi Shabbat and then do
> the Hagdalah after Shabbat. If your not aloud can you give me an
> explanation why? Also on Friday are you aloud starting before the
> shabbat starts?

My cousin Chananya who is here for Pesach writes:

   To the best of my knowledge, since Passover does not actually start
until sundown (as does Shabbos) it is not permissable to begin Passover
services, or eat matza for that matter until after Passover has begun.
Similarly with Motzei Shabbos, we must not confuse the appropriate time
for shalosh seudos (third Shabbos meal), consequently it would not be
permissible to have the second seder until the appropriate time after
sundown on Saturday night. As to your question where you differenciated
between "the seder" and "the Hagaddah," in actuality the seder is
fulfilled by follwing the Hagaddah in it's correct order- the Hagaddah
shows us the seder; which in English means "order" of Passover .  If you
absolutely have to, it's better than nothing. But there is a famous
quote from the Hagaddah that states "whoever tells about it at length is
praiseworthy" and many of us stay up late discussing the story anyway,
so it's no big deal to start a bit later.  Before you make your final
decision however as to what to do, I would consult my local Orthodox
Rabbi, or you could just play it safe and start after Passover has

               Rabbi Chananya Yom Tov Lipa Rosenblum
               Yeshivas Ner Israel
               Baltimore, Maryland


From: <Yisroel1@...> (Rabbi Chananya Yom Tov Lipa Rosenblum)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:15:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Reclining at the seder

> On the contrary, the Mishna Brura (472:10) explains that we lean on the
> left because the right hand is needed for eating. Following this logic,
> he says (472:11) that a left-handed person who leaned on the right has
> fulfilled the mitzva after the fact. Preferably, however, even a
> left-handed person should lean on the left because of health factors
> (also in 472:11).

My cousin Chananya, here for Pesach writes:

      The main reason I have heard for reclining on the left side at the
seder is that if one leans on the right, it causes his epiglottis- the flap
of skin that covers the windpipe during eating so one doesn't choke- to stay
open and one may come G-d forbid to choke. Therefore our rabbis have
suggested we lean on the left side, causing our windpipe to be covered and
properly fulfill the mitzvos of the seder. 
                     Rabbi Chananya Yom Tov Lipa Rosenblum
                     Yeshivas Ner Israel
                     Baltimore, Maryland


From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:14:00 +0200
Subject: Sium - Erev Peseach

I participated in a shiur this past Shabbat, where it was mentioned that
when one participates in a Siyum, he has to eat at least Mezonot (cake)
if not bread, and eat enough to require the blessing after (Bracha
Achrona), and have wine.

Peseach Kasher Vsameach, Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 01:19:02 -0400
Subject: Re: The 1st Cup

Lon Eisenberg writes:
> ... it is really preferable to drink
> at least an entire "revi`ith" for the first cup.  The reason for this is
> that you are supposed to have kiddush bemaqom seudah [in the place of
> your meal].  Besides being in the same place, it needs to be at the same
> time; the accepted time gap is 1/2 hr.
>  Since few of us will reach the eating of mazah within a half hour of
> kiddush, we should make a "meal" out of wine.  One needs a revi`ith to
> do so.

I don't understand the above reasoning. In the case of "regular" kiddush
on shabbat, the halacha as I understand it requires drinking a revi`ith
of wine for Seudah (meal) after drinking whatever is necessary for
kiddush. The wine needed for kiddush does not count toward making this a
place of your meal.

Avi Feldblum


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:31:57 +0000
Subject: Wicked Son

Mike Grynberg <spike@...> wrote:

>As for the second son, the rasha, wicked son, (which i believe is
>refered to in sefer shemot, sorry no exact references.) the question and
>answer do not correspond at all to what the tora tells us?

Although normally we are not allowed to teach Torah to a wicked person
(apikores) for fear that he'll use the additional knowledge against
Torah, on the night of the Seder, which is a very special and auspicious
time, we do teach him.

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


End of Volume 19 Issue 28