Volume 19 Number 37
                       Produced: Sun Apr 30  8:06:36 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Buffalo nazi hunter request
         [Stan Tenen]
Dairy after Meat
         [Aaron Naiman]
Death as Part of Surgery
         [Seth Ness]
Goedel and Halacah
         [Micha Berger]
Kashrut - V19#22
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
         [Zvi Weiss]
Missionary refutation
         [Steve Albert]
Organ Transplants OK'd by Eida Charedit
         [Josh Backon]
Shiluach Haken
Stocks, Date Lines & Gambling
         [David Goldreich]


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:23:39 -0700
Subject: Buffalo nazi hunter request

Buffalo nazi hunter request

As some already know, Meru Foundation's work has been plagiarized, and 
severely bastardized, by an aggressive, persistent, and charismatic new-
age charlatan.  Therefore we have been forced into a lawsuit to defend 
the integrity of our work from this thoroughly repugnant presentation.  
During the course of the lawsuit we discovered that the person who took 
our work may not have done so at random.  Rather, it now seems possible 
that we were targeted because we and/or our work are "Jewish":  the 
family business of the person plagiarizing us is named "SS Electric."

While this is an odd name, we initially did not take serious notice of 
it.  A few weeks ago, we learned that this name is shortened from 
"Schleier-Sturm Electric" (Schleier Sturm means "veiled/secret/occult 

We do have additional information (not appropriate to discuss publicly), 
but I do not want to be presumptuous, and I certainly do not want to 
make any accusations.  Therefore, we need to get the facts.

Does anyone know of persons in New York State, especially the Buffalo 
area, that are knowledgeable about tracing nazis or neo-nazis?

On a less somber note, does anyone who lives in the Buffalo area have a 
set of out-of-date local phone books that they could send to us?  (The 
phone company here wants $50 each for the white and yellow pages.)  We 
would be pleased to reimburse the cost of mailing.  If you can help with 
this, please send email to <meru1@...>, and we will tell you 
where to send them.

Many thanks.
Stan Tenen
Meru Foundation


From: <naiman@...> (Aaron Naiman)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 08:49:52 +0300
Subject: Dairy after Meat

Hi all.  The situation: One forgets that one is fleishig (having eaten
meat), and eats milchig (dairy products).  Question: Can one then just
continue eating milchig?

A relative asked me this question, saying that he understands, as I
do, that this just cannot be so, i.e., that a person must refrain from
continuing to eat milchig.  This makes sense to me, and indeed I found
a number of proofs/sources in Halacha that we hold this way.  However,
my relative heard that there is an opinion to the contrary.  So, my
(his) question to you is: Has anyone heard (sources, please) of such
an opinion?

P.S. The only real difference in making aliya is not breaking the
     matza feasting on Entenmann's. :-)

Aaron Naiman | Jerusalem College of Technology | University of Maryland, IPST
(Aharon)     | <naiman@...>           | naiman@glue.umd.edu


From: Seth Ness <ness@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Death as Part of Surgery

i very much doubt that someone undergoing the surgery described is
halachically brain dead. halachic brain death requires brain stem death.
an eeg tells you nothing about the brain stem. i'm sure there is
activity in the brain stem during this surgery.

Seth L. Ness                         Ness Gadol Hayah Sham


From: Micha Berger <berger@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 08:34:26 -0400
Subject: Goedel and Halacah

Ben Rothke asked if Goedel's theorem would have an effect on halachah.

In short, Goedel presented a set of theorems that boil down to showing
that any sufficiently robust finite formal system that is consistent
(i.e. does not claim both something and its opposite -- A and not A)
must be incomplete.

Does this mean that halachah must be incomplete?

The question could be resolved on a number of levels:
1- As Ari Belenky points out, halachah is not consistent. Eilu va'eilu
divrei Elokim Chaim - both these and those are the words of the Living
G-d. When two opinions argue, both are teaching Hashem's word.
Halachah, on this level, contains paradoxes. Abayei could say assur,
and Rava could say mutar, and both are within halachah.

2- On a different level, halachic rulings are made. We can not follow
both Abayeri and Rava. As R. Tzadok Hakohein writes (on the quote
"eilu va'eilu), the logic of the mind could hold something and its
opposite, the logic of deed can not.

However, this part is open-ended. New piskei halachah (rulings) are
constantly being created. On this level halachah not finite.

Either way, Goedel's th'm wouldn't apply.

3- It halachah a formal system? That is to say, does it involve the
manipulation of forms, symbols qua symbols, or does it revolve around
the semantics of the symbols?

This actually gets us on a tangent involving Serle's argument that
computers can not think because computers manipulate symbols, while
minds manipulate ideas. (Syntax vs. semantics). The artificial
intelligence groupies have a counter-argument, that there is no real
distinction and so on....

However, if Serle is right, halachah can not be mapped to a formal
system, as it involves semantics, not just forms.

Micha Berger                     Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3088 days!
<berger@...>  212 224-4937             (16-Oct-86 -  7-Apr-95)
<aishdas@...>  201 916-0287
<a href=http://haven.ios.com/~aishdas>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>


From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:01:53 +0200
Subject: Kashrut - V19#22

The post mentioned that the Mashgiach at Motorola Israel, will eat the
food from the local kitchen but not the meat. The post did not state
why, but to me it seems the problem is that in Israel the cheaper priced
meat is imported from abroad (Argentina etc.). The animals are
slaughtered and frozen for shippment to Israel, WITHOUT koshering the
meat. Normally the meat should be koshered within 72 hours of
slaughtering. The meat being frozen presents the question from when do
you count 72 hours, from the time of slaughtering or from the time it is
defrosted. The standard Rabanut will start counting from the time the
meat is defrosted. "Chalak", "Glat" would mean in Israel that the meat
was koshered within 72 Hours. (the "Chalak" means more but this is one
of the criteria for it).

Lately the Rabanut has been trying to kosher the meat abroad and then it
would be marked as Chalak meat (only some of the imported meat).

Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 14:24:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Missionaries

For the fellow who had a question in dealing with the garbage that the 
missionaries spew out, I would strongly urge that that fellow get in 
touch wiht <m-debate@...>  as they are VERY concerned about that and 
will do their best to help out.



From: <SAlbert@...> (Steve Albert)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:20:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Missionary refutation

     The author of the Web page (on how to deal with and refute missionaries)
mentioned by Rachel Rosencrantz in "Tehilim and Missionaries" (MJ 19:35) is a
friend, currently studying at U. Texas (hence the Web address).  Anyone
wanting to contact him, feel free to e-mail me, and (bli neder) I'll try to
put you in touch.
Steve Albert (<SAlbert@...>)


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Wed,  19 Apr 95 11:24 +0200
Subject: Organ Transplants OK'd by Eida Charedit

The ruling by Harav Yehoshua Sheinberger of the Eida Charedit in
Jerusalem on the permissibility of organ transplants made headlines
in Tuesday's newspapers in Israel. My guess is that the impetus for this
may have come about because of the psak of Harav Moshe Tendler in the
Alisa Flatow case. BTW there is a caveat to the ruling by Sheinberger:
the organ must NOT be transplanted into an apikores or into a goy.
Sheinberger did state that the majority of secular Israelis were NOT
in the category of apikores. I am curious as to the halachic basis for
Sheinberger's ruling.

Josh Backon


From: <kramer@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 10:07:39 EST
Subject: Shiluach Haken

Spring in the suburbs brings allergies and bird nests.

This year a mourning dove has set up a nest on my tool shed under the
car port of my house.  There are two eggs in the nest and I expect them
to hatch by the end of Pesach.  My daughter who was home for the Sedarim
pointed out that I had the opportunity to fulfill the mitzvah of
Shiluach Haken (chasing away the mother bird before taking the eggs or
fledglings).  I asked my LOR about this and he indicated if the
requirements are met, I do indeed have an opportunity and maybe even a
requirement to fulfill the mitzvah.  He pointed me to the Sefer
Hachinuch which I've reviewed and also indicated there is a whole sefer
out detailing the finer points of the Halachah. Since this is not a
common mitzvah (definitely not one I had much opportunity to practice
growing up in NYC), and I do not have access to the Sefer, I am left
with several questions:

1.  The bird roosting *must* be the female to be eligible.  Can I be
guaranteed that the mourning dove roosting is a female?

2.  The birds and hatchlings must be a kosher variety.  Is a mourning
dove kosher?

3.  Is a nest on private property, off the road, considered eligible for
the Mitzvah?

4.  Am I eligible to perform the mitzvah if I have do not intend to use
the eggs? I could use them as fertilizer for my plants. Please no flames
from animal rights activists -- although the question of Tza'ar Ba'alei
Chaim (cruelty to animals) does come to mind :-)

5.  Do you make a Bracha?  At what point? With Hashem's name?

6.  Can I take one egg at a time and get two Mitzvahs?

7.  If the eggs hatch can I still perform the Mitzvah? Must I? (I'm not
sure I have the stomach to grab the hatchlings!)

Because of the urgency, I would appreciate direct communication to my
address (<DTK1950@...>) along with the answer to the list serve for
the general public.

Chag Kasher V'Sameach
David Kramer


From: David Goldreich <dg10+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:40:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Stocks, Date Lines & Gambling

It is very easy to be excessively machmir (strict) when you don't know
the halachah, but it is also wrong when there is no reason to be strict.
 It is particularly wrong to tell others to be machmir for no good

First of all, I'm not a rabbi, so I'm not 100% sure of the halacha, but
the posters who want to make everything forbidden are going way

First of all regarding owning stocks or mutual funds on Pesach:

Yehudah Edelstein stated:
>Avoiding any possible problem, can be done by including
>all these shares in the sale of Chametz before Peseach.

It's too easy to say "avoid the problem."  That doesn't answer the question.
I seem to remember that if you have no direct control over the company's
operations then there is no problem.  There is absolutely no need to
sell your stock for Pesach.  (If you own a controlling share, that's a
different story.)

In fact, I'd be very skeptical of any sale that included stocks.  What
happens when the stock price changes over Pesach?  The value of the
"chometz" can change by many thousands of dollars over a week. Does the
goy have the right to demand an extra $10,000 if the price goes up?  Do
you have the right to refuse to rebuy the "chometz" if the price drops

Secondly, regarding the international date line:

Yehudah Prero says:
>This was a b'dieved situation. L'chat'chila, one should NOT
>GO to such a place for Shabbos/Tomtov, as the p'sak of the Chazon Ish
>was ONLY b'dieved, for people who were in such a situation already.

The question of the date line may be a difficult one, but nowhere does
it say that you can't live on a Pacific island.  It is up to the poskim
to decide when shabbos is, and then we have every right to follow them
L'CHATCHILLA.  The poskim determine the halacha and that is the halacha
regardless of the Torah's original intent.  Wasn't there a story in the
Gemara where there was a disagreement regarding the date of Yom Kippur? 
They didn't say "let's be frum and keep both days."  The person with
authority (A) commanded the other (B) to come to him carrying his stick
and purse on the day that B thought was Yom Kippur.  (I forget the exact
details - I'm sure many of you are familiar with the story.)

Finally, regarding gambling:

David Charlap says
>As far as I know, it's forbidden outright.  I think it's considered to
>be a total waste of time, and wasting time is prohibited.
>Furthermore, gambling with cards (as opposed to dice or slot machines or
>something) has additional kabbalistic problems.

There is no way that gambling is forbidden per se.  At most, it may be
forbidden in some instances (for example, perhaps if your opponent does
not think he can lose).  Also, gambling as a profession is not desirable
(you may not be considered a believable witness).  But it's not
necessarily forbidden.

Waste of time?  I can think of many other forms of time wasting that we
don't get so worked up about. In that case, sports are forbidden (and
let's not even talk about television).  

Cards have kabbalistic problems?  Big deal.  Kaballah is not halacha. 
If you want to follow something based on kabbalah, good for you, but
don't impose it on anyone else.

I may be wrong on some of the details here, but it doesn't change the
basic point.  It is far too easy to say "I don't know the halachah - so
don't do it."  That's not the way the Torah works.  All it does is add
unnecessary burdens and restrictions on peoples lives.  Adding chumros
based on ignorance doesn't make you any frumer.

David Goldreich, PhD Student - Financial Economics
Graduate School of Industrial Administration
Carnegie Mellon University
(412) 268-3780   (412) 422-5304


End of Volume 19 Issue 37