Volume 19 Number 43
                       Produced: Sun May  7 15:55:59 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Attitude after violating a De'Rabanan
         [Ben Rothke]
Crypto-jews of Belmonte, Portugal
         [<yitzchok.adlerstein@...>(Yitzchok Adlerstein)]
Date Line issue
         [Seth Rosenblum]
Esrog Jelly
         [Rivka Goldfinger]
         [Zvi Weiss  ]
         [Steve Wildstrom]
Interest Free Loans
         [Warren Burstein]
Kashrut Information Online
         [Erez Pitchon]
Kiddush after Shul
         [Etan Diamond]
Leaning at the Seder
         [Josh Backon]
         [Zvi Weiss  ]
Loopholes and Chametz
         [Mike Grynberg]
Radziner techeiles and the Chafeitz Chaim
         [Michael J Broyde]
Ribbit (interest)
         [Eli Turkel]
Ribis - V19#22
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
The Wicked Son
         [Mark Steiner]


From: Ben Rothke <Ber@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 10:33:16 EST
Subject: Attitude after violating a De'Rabanan

If someone accidently violated a De'Rabanan issur (i.e., Normally 
waits 6 hours between meat/milk, and accidently had milk after 3 hours 
or, found a loaf of bread on Pesach on which they were already 
mavatel), what should their feelings be?  
Should one just shrug it off and say "No big deal, it was only a 
De'Rabanan" or should one feel a deeper pain that they violated a 
Rabinic decree?


From: <yitzchok.adlerstein@...>(Yitzchok Adlerstein)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 12:06:11 -0700
Subject: Crypto-jews of Belmonte, Portugal

The most inspirating tidbit I used at the seder this year didn't come
from a new haggadah I researced.  It came from a story in the March 24
edition of The Forward, about a community in Belmonte, Portugal who kept
their faith in Judaism alive for 500 years, while living overtly as
loyal Christians.

A few years ago, the community "came out of the closet" en masse, sought
out a spiritual leader from Israel, converted (to satisfy halachic
concerns after hundreds of years of not having halachic guidance),
provided bris milah to males as old as sixty-five, and now embrace the
practice of Judaism with passion.

Mi k'amcha Yisrael!  [Which people, Hashem, is like your people
Israel?!]  How strong those lessons of yitzias Mitzrayim [exodus for
Egypt] and Matan Torah [giving of the Torah at Sinai] must have been to
carry a community through the silence of half a millenium!

I wonder whether any mail-jewish readers have any more information about 
this community and its wonderful story.


From: <Yisroel1@...> (Seth Rosenblum)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 00:24:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Date Line issue

>  There had been some discussion lately about the issue of when to
>  keep Shabbos when there is a date line question...

Just for the record, I know someone, who knows someone else who is a
Mashgiach in a tuna factory in Fiji. He is required to keep two days of
Shabbos. He keeps the first day as normal and the second only D'oraysa.

Chag Kasher v'Sameach, have a good yomtov...,
Seth Rosenblum (<Yisroel1@...>)


From: <RGOLDFINGER@...> (Rivka Goldfinger)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:02:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Esrog Jelly

I want to thank everyone who responded to my question of what to do with
Shmitta esrog jelly that had chometz in it, but was also stuck in the jar.
We finally got a p'sack (ruling) from Rabbi Hopfer in Baltimore to be
mafkir the jelly in front of three people.  My father left it in a public
place, and I assume someone took it.  

Rivka Goldfinger


From: Zvi Weiss		 <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:06:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Imagination...

The only imagination that I can understand is in those areas where *in 
theory* CHAZAL could re-interpret certain Torah areas.  Each generation 
has this "right" if they have a Beit Din of Semuchin (Note that in htis 
area Rabbinical matters end up being treated MORE stringently!).  It is 
only a "gentleman's agreement" (cf Kessef Mishne who mentions this but 
does not use such a term) that later Dorot (e.g., of Amoraim) did not 
exercise this option vis-a-vis derashot of Tannaim.
In any event, there is always the possiblity that a later generation 
interprets differently (which is why the minority opinion is also cited 
in the Mishna...).  Now, imagine if a later generation of Semuchin 
accepted Ben Azzai's appraoch that a man is OBLIGATED to teach his 
daughter Torah (at least in certain specified areas as noted in the 
Mishna...)  Or, perhaps, a "greater" Beit Din revoking the Gemara's 
strictures against Teaching a woman Torah.......



From: Steve Wildstrom <swild@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 12:32:48 est
Subject: Re: Interest

In MJ 19:31 David M Kramer <david_m_kramer@...> writes:

>The risk factor with lending money to a Gentile was high, so interest 
>was permitted.  The risk factor with lending money to another Jew was 
>minimal, so interest was forbidden. (The Jew who lends the money to 
>his fellow Jew had complete faith that Hashem will bestow the 
>borrower with success and enable him to repay the loan).

In fact, straight credit risk--the danger that a loan will not be
repaid--is a relatively small part of the interest and, in the case of
the most creditworthy borrowers, an insignificant one. The basic reason
for charging interest is what economists call the "time value of money."
If I ask you would you rather have $1 today or $1 a year from now, you
will of course say today. So I ask instead, "How much do I have to offer
you a year from now to make you willing to wait?" The difference is the
interest. In part, it's simply that the lender forgoes the use of the
money for a period of time. Partly, it's that the lender assumes risks,
such as inflation. And partly it's because yoyu may not repay me. Only
the last, it seems to me, would be affected by the circumstances of a
Jewish vs. a non-Jewish borrower.


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 11:00:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Interest Free Loans

David M. Kramer writes, in the name of Rav Moshe Heinemann:

>The risk factor with lending money to another Jew was
>minimal, so interest was forbidden. (The Jew who lends the money to his
>fellow Jew had complete faith that Hashem will bestow the borrower with
>success and enable him to repay the loan).

Why should the Jewish lender have such faith?  I can understand having
faith that the Jewish borrower will do everything possible to repay
the loan, but I know of no divine promise that no one will ever lose
money in the course of performing the mitzvah of lending money.

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


From: Erez Pitchon <epitchon@...>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 95 19:36:10 MDT
Subject: Kashrut Information Online

To whom it may concern.

I'm a Jewish student at the U of Calgary.  I have an interest in finding
material on Laws of Kashruth, but have had no luck in locating documents
on the net that outline various laws.  Perhaps you know where I might
find Related documents or Archives.

Hope to here from you soon, 
Erez Pitchon.


From: Etan Diamond <aa725@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:40:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kiddush after Shul

I remember a discussion a while back regarding kiddush clubs, but I do 
not think the following was discussed.  In any case, does anyone have an 
idea about when shuls started having kiddushes after davening?  I refer 
both to the general practice of having something to eat and drink (shnapps 
and herring) and the more elaborate cake, gefilte fish, kugel, cholent, 
etc.  Is this a twentieth-century development? 19th? Earlier? Is is 
European, or do Sephardic shuls do the same?  Is there any connection 
to Christian "coffee hours" after church?  Thanks.

Etan Diamond
Department of History
Carnegie Mellon University


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Wed,  19 Apr 95 11:52 +0200
Subject: Re: Leaning at the Seder

Allan Pollard questions why HASIVA (leaning) would differentially affect
windpipe closure and that Rosenbloom in his sefer has difficulty in
accepting this reasoning. I addressed this topic over a week ago in
Mail Jewish. It *just* occurred to me that the same mechanism I proposed
(skin pressure vegetative reflex affecting brain hemispheric laterality
and consequent cognitive behavior) would also affect windpipe closure.
What's embarrassing is that I wrote the paper on it :-)
Backon J. Stimulation of epipharyngeal receptors can produce significant
bronchoconstriction or bronchodilation: Dependence upon unilateral forced
nostril breathing ? MEDICAL HYPOTHESES 1989;29:145-146

To reiterate: HASIVA to the left (which prevents SHEMA YAKDIM KANA leVESHET)
does cause one to act as a *free man* (HERUT). Leaning to the RIGHT would
cause a vagal reflex, bronchoconstriction, and reflex opening of the windpipe.

Thank you for reminding me of the paper I wrote. Anyone know of a good

Josh Backon


From: Zvi Weiss		 <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 14:11:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Leaning...

For those interested, the Gemara in Arvei Pesachim (last Chapter in 
Pesachim) discusses leaning and notes that leaning on the right side 
presents a danger -- Rashi  (and Rashbam) appear to explain this in terms 
of the epiglottis (although I do not believe that they use *that* term) 
and the fact that food will go down the trachea instead of the esophogus 
(spelling ??) -- leading to serious problems (for the one that this 
happens to)...


From: Mike Grynberg <spike@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 12:56:01 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Loopholes and Chametz

this past pesach I was in efrat with my in-laws. They sold their chametz
through the rav of the town, Rabbi Riskin. In the contract you must state
your address, phone number, generally what type of chametz, and specifically 
where in your house the chamtezt will be kept. This was no loophole, but a 
genuine sale. On the first day of chol hamoed, Rabbi Riskin came bye the 
house with Daoud, who had bought the towns chametz from Rabbi Riskin a 
few days earlier. Daoud came to get some cereal. 

This supposedly happens every year. Rabbi Riskin and Daoud visit a few
families wish them a chag sameach, and Daoud takes some of his chametz.

I believe this is the way the sale was meant to be done, as a real sale,
and not as a loophole.

Mike Grynberg


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Radziner techeiles and the Chafeitz Chaim

Micha Berger states:

> The Radziner techeiles (which, BTW, was worn by the Chafeitz Chaim)
	I would be very interested in a source for this statement.
Michael Broyde


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 23:25:27 +0300
Subject: Ribbit (interest)

     It is still unclear from the various posters why it is a mitzva to
lend someone a billion dollars (or the best he can towards this) for
someone to use in a business adventure. One is certainly not helping a
poor person out of his straights.
    In terms of practical problems in addition to buying stocks, short a
more prevalant problem is buying on an installment plan and at the other
end getting a discount for paying cash on the spot.



From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:14:38 +0200
Subject: Ribis - V19#22

The problem of Ribis when depositing money or borowing money from an Israeli
bank, is avoided by "Heter Iska". Each bank in Israel has a standing contract
with it's customers (the contract hangs on the wall of each bank in Israel).
The bank and customer become partners and the Ribis paid, either way,
technincally is not concidered Ribis.
The question can be asked, does a bank establishment have the same Isur of
lending money with ribis, as an individual?

Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: Mark Steiner <MARKSA@...>
Date: Sun,  23 Apr 95 9:37 +0200
Subject: The Wicked Son

On the answer to the wicked son:
	The answers to all four sons, including the wicked one, are in
fulfillment of the mitzvah of sippur yetziat mitzrayim (retelling the
Exodus) to one's sons.  The rebuke of the wicked son is fulfilling the
same mitzvah as does the scholarly answer to the wise son.  The haggadah
tells us that all four sons must be at the table.  Each son is told the
story according to his station.
	The same answer is given to the wicked as to the one who does
not know how to ask, because the verse used for both begins with the
word "vehigadta"--Chazal at Ex. 19:3 understand the root of the verb as
"gid" (sinew, metaphorically: hard as sinews), while at Ex. 13:8
understand the verb as derived from agada (stories that excite
interest), cf. Rashi on both verses.  Depending on the tone of voice the
same words can be recited to both sons.

Mark Steiner


End of Volume 19 Issue 43