Volume 19 Number 45
                       Produced: Sun May  7 20:04:48 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bracha on Bread
         [Danny Skaist]
Challah minhag puzzle
         [Alan Rubin]
Chasing away the mother bird
         [George S. Schneiderman]
Covering Cake at a Kiddush
         [Danny Skaist]
Piece of Bread for Hamotzei
         [Barry L Parnas]
Shiluach Hakan (2)
         [Doni Zivotofsky, Mr D S Deutsch]
Shiluach HaKan
         [Barry H. Rodin]
Shiluach Haken
         [Warren Burstein]


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 15:41 IST
Subject: Bracha on Bread

>Danny Geretz
>In Volume 19 # 29, Steve Bailey discusses a possible reason for partly
>cutting ("pre-slicing") the challah on Shabbat before making the hamotzi
>This is actually pretty close to what I learned the reason was: Usually,
>you make a bracha when the food is ready to eat; and the challah is only
>ready to eat after it has been sliced.  In order to have the challah

The shulchan auruch has a whole list of bread products and the order of
preference when making a bracha.  When faced with a whole loaf or a
slice, you are required to make the bracha over the whole loaf.



From: <arubin@...> (Alan Rubin)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 95 10:07 BST-1
Subject: Challah minhag puzzle

There has been some discussion of possible reasons for partly cutting
("pre-slicing") the challah on Shabbat before making the hamotzi bracha.

I think that the Ramah (Rabbi Moses Isserlis) is of the opinion that
challah on shabbat should not be pre-sliced.  (Orech Hachayim 167'1")
This is because pre-slicing would detract from having two complete
challot.  pre-slicing is only allowed during the week.  If I am reading
him right, how is it that this minhag can be correct according to the

Alan Rubin
Edgware, Middx.


From: George S. Schneiderman <schneid@...>
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 02:33:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Chasing away the mother bird

>  My daughter who was home for the Sedarim pointed out that I had the 
>  opportunity to fulfill the mitzvah of Shiluach Haken (chasing away the 
>  mother bird before taking the eggs or fledglings).  

Fulfilling this mitzvah when one doesn't actually want the eggs, for the
sake of fulfilling the mitzvah, sounds to me like divorcing one's wife,
for the sake of fulfilling that mitzvah.  (Mitvah #222 in the Rambam's
system: "To issue a divorce by means of a Get.)  In both cases, these
mitzvot are explaining the proper way to go about something doing
something that you need to do, but which is nonetheless less than
morally ideal.

If you don't actually have use for the eggs--and creating an artificial
"use" to fulfill the mitzvah doesn't count--then it seems to me that
there is also an issue of lo-taschit, the prohibition on destructive
wastefulness.  (Based upon the prohibition on destroying fruit trees
even during a siege) The prohibition on unnecesary cruelty to animals
also seems germane.

I'm not exactly an "animal rights activist", but fulfilling this mitzvah
when you don't plan on eating (or otherwise using in a legitimately
productive manner) the eggs or chicks seems terribly misguided.

<schneid@...>  Not all those who wander are lost.    	
George S. Schneiderman     The old that is strong does not wither, 
Harvard College               From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
(617) 493-6009		         Renewed shall be blade that was broken,


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 15:34 IST
Subject: Covering Cake at a Kiddush

>Lon Eisenberg
>was the embarrassement reason.  I pointed out that the "Shulhan `Arukh"
>makes it clear that bread precedes wine.  I then brought up the similar
>situation of a Shabbath morning kiddush where cake (not bread) was
>served, pointing out that it must be covered for the same reason.

Bread must be covered because you are allowed to make kiddush on the bread
instead of the wine.  Since you choose the wine first you must cover the

Cake need not be covered since you are not ALLOWED to eat it beore kiddush,
which means that you are required to drink the wine first and there is no



From: Barry L Parnas <BLPARN@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 12:41:59 cst
Subject: Piece of Bread for Hamotzei

David Charlap wrote in the "slice the bread before Hamotzei" discussion:
    "During the week, we tear off a piece of bread and hold it while making
    Motzi (the blessing over the bread), and you quickly eat that piece as
    soon as you finish the bracha (blessing).  This is because there
    should be a minimal delay between making a bracha and taking the
    corresponding action - you should rush to do a mitzva."

I learned in the Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Brura that we should make
Hamotzei on the largest piece, preferrably a whole piece, of bread
available.  Tearing off a piece of bread first contradicts this
instruction.  Furthermore, white bread takes precedence over dark, wheat
over other grains, etc.  The slice we make before Hamotzei is for speed.
During the week, the Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Brura goes on to say, we
should make a deep cut.  As previous posts noted if you ruin the whole
it's not a problem during the week.  On Shabbos we should make a shallow
cut so as to retain the whole.


From: <DONIZ@...> (Doni Zivotofsky)
Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 01:39:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shiluach Hakan

In response to David Kramers query regarding Shiluach Hakan - (this is
not an animal rights flame) I thought that the "idea" of the mitvah was
one of compassion i.e. if one wants to use the eggs or chicks then the
mother must be shooed away so that she is not so distressed.  If one
does not need the eggs or chicks why disturb her?  (am I missing
something here.  (eg.  there is a mitvah of shechita but we don't do it
just because there is an animal present and possibility to do it.  We
only shecht if we want to eat the animal)

From: Mr D S Deutsch <dsd3543@...>
Date: 05 May 95 13:20:00 BST
Subject: Shiluach Hakan

The questions raised by David Kramer regarding the mitzvah of Shiluach
Hakan (SH) are interesting , particularly as it is not a subject that
frequently arises (at least with we residents of the urban jungle).

I shall try and deal with them one by one. (Lahalochoh but not lemaaseh,
bearing in mind that I am a pharmacist not a Rov).

1.>Is the mourning dove roosting a female?

I guess you need to consult an expert. If it cannot be determined then
when in doubt the mitzvah should still be performed. My evidence for this
is the Pischei T'shuva in Shulchan Aruch YD 292 which paskens that one
should not make a brocho on SH in case the eggs are not viable (Muzoros)
in which case there is no mitzvah. Nevertheless the mitzvah should still
be performed.

2. >Is a mourning dove kosher?

We only eat birds which we have a tradition are kosher and therefore do
not use the 'signs' that are stated in YD 82 as typical of kosher birds.
However as far as the mitzvah of SH goes I would imagine that one can rely
on these signs.

3. >Are you eligible to do the mitzvah if you don't intend to use the
   >What about using them as fertiliser?

There are two issues here. Firstly, does one need to want the eggs for
there to be a mitzvah. Secondly, if one does, is this restricted to eating

The first is the subject of a difference of opinion between the Poskim.
The Chasam Sofer (Orach Chaim 100) has a wide ranging T'shuva on the
subject of SH. He cites the Chacham Tzvi and Chavos Yair who do not even
require one to take the eggs in the first place and he brings a Zohar to
support this view (quoted by the Chacham Tzvi). The Chasam Sofer however
disagrees and brings proof from the Talmud (Bavli) and Rishonim that the
mitzvah is only an obligation if you actually want the eggs (in the
terminology of the Achronim- a 'mattir').

Interestingly he states that this is the view of the Sefer Hachinuch and
the Ramban who say that the mitzvah is to improve our middoh of rachmonus.
Were it to be a mitzvah irrespective of the need for the eggs then it
would have the opposite effect.

Therefore you are better off finding a use for the eggs.

On the second point I would not think that you have to use them for
eating. My evidence is that if you would need to eat them then the Torah
would not have to specifically exclude eggs of a non-kosher variety.

5.>Does one make a Brocho?

The Beis Lechem Yehuda in the Shulchan Aruch YD 292 recommends not to
since there is a machlokos whether to do so. Some of those who do(quoted
in Pischei T'shuva ibid.) even consider that a shehecheyonu should also be
made. This itself could be a separate subject for discussion!

6. >Can I take one egg at a time?

I can't see how you could do this. Are you suggesting that you send the
mother bird away, take one egg, allow it to return and then repeat the
process? The problem is that since the bird is nesting on your property,
as soon as it goes off, you will acquire the eggs (through a kinyan
chatzer). You can't then repeat the mitzvah since it is classified as
Mezumon - see Shulchan Aruch YD 292 Paragraph 2. Indeed this may be a
problem for you in any case since when it is on one's property, it becomes
Mezumon even if the bird flies off briefly, and the whole mitzvah is lost.

7. >If the eggs hatch can I still perform the mitzvah? Must I? (I'm not
   >sure if I have the stomach to grab the hatchlings).

I can't see why you shouldn't have the mitzvah once they've hatched. the
Torah mentions specifically eggs or hatchlings.
Whether you must or not depends on whether you consider the mitzvah a
'mattir'. See Number 4 above.

>From the Chasam Sofer quoted above it appears that one needn't physically
handle the hatchlings (or eggs) to fulfil the mitzvah. (I'm not sure how
one is supposed to get them in that case. Perhaps he is referring only to
a case when they are on one's property in which case the kinyan
constitutes the taking.)

If you haven't got the stomach to grab the hatchlings you probably haven't
got the stomach to grab the mother bird either. In that case according to
the Rambam you are not fulfilling the mitzvah anyway since he requires you
to actually grasp the bird before sending it away (see Chasam Sofer quoted

Rashi, however only requires one to frighten the mother bird away.
Handling is unnecessary.

The Chasam Sofer seems to imply that when one cannot handle the mother
bird, e.g. on Shabbos (the circumstance of his questioner), the mitzvah of
SH should not be fulfilled since according to the Rambam it would then
constitute cruelty not a mitzvah.

(It is possible that Shabbos is a special case since he explains that
according to the Zohar SH should anyway not be performed on Shabbos.)

Overall it looks like you may have a problem fulfilling the mitzvah.

Of course the birds might have flown by now in which case we have
fulfilled the mitzvah merely by discussing it :-)

David Deutsch

From: Barry H. Rodin <brodin@...>
Date: Mon, 1 May 95 15:23:24 EDT
Subject: Shiluach HaKan

Does Shiluach HaKan apply to chickens? (which are certainly birds)
If not, why not?


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:03:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Shiluach Haken

I've got pigeons (kosher, although I wouldn't eat them, I would imagine
there's a risk of disease) nesting in the exhaust pipe of my apartment's
heating system.  I wonder if I should let them lay eggs.  Chances are
that there's no way I could get the eggs out intact, I'd probably have
no choice but to pull the whole thing, nest and eggs and all out with a
hook which would probably destroy the eggs.

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


End of Volume 19 Issue 45