Volume 19 Number 61
                       Produced: Sun May 14 10:17:24 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia: Sam Goldish, Z"L
         [Avi Feldblum]
         [Yisrael Medad]
Direction to turn
         [Tony Glickman]
Gay Clubs at Cardozo law school
         [Michael J Broyde]
Godel's Uncertainty Principle and Judaism
         [Shemtov Shapiro]
Is the "beit yosef" available on line?
         [Michael J Broyde]
Kaballah as Chomas Ha Emes
         [Harry Schick]
Lecha Dodi (2)
         [Moishe Halibard, Yeshuah Ezra Dweck ]
Question on turning for Lcha Dodi
         [Joe Halberstadt]
Shiluach Haken
         [Moishe Kimelman]
         [Lon Eisenberg]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 09:44:01 -0400
Subject: Administrivia: Sam Goldish, Z"L

It is with a sad heart that I report to the list the passing of one of
our mail-jewish family, Sam Goldish, Z"L. His son, Dan, just sent me a
note telling me of his passing. To Dan (also a mail-jewish member) and
other members of his family, may Hashem comfort you among the mourners
of Zion and Yerushalaim.

Sam, at age 76 when he passed away, was likely one of our older family
members. His postings reflected his accumulated wisdom, as well as an
influence of his hometown of Tulsa, Oklahoma. I will miss his writings
and emails to me. I am happy and proud that he enjoyed mail-jewish.

This issue of mail-jewish is dedicated to the memory of Sam Goldish.

Avi Feldblum
Shamash Facilitator and mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 14 May 95 09:30 IST
Subject: Churches

When I first came to Israel in 1966, every tour we took, it seemed,
ended up at a church.  I asked in Meah Shearim what they thought and one
enlightened opinion I received was that since this is Eretz-Yisrael, and
it is our land, entry is permitted as long as one is not seen to be
partaking in any religious service but just visiting.  So, in Chutz
La'Aretz I do not visit churches (unless there is an overriding reason
such as participation in a panel discussion on non-religious topics) but
have no problems here in Israel.

Which reminds me of a story I heard from Rav Yaakov Gellis that he too
went to visit the Church of the Selpuchre and informed me that as one
had to bow low in order to gain entrance, he thought of not going in as
that would seem to be granting respect to the altar and idol.  But as he
turned to retreat he realized he had discovered the way to go in.  And
so, he entered posterior foremost which was a bit of a shock for the
priest there, according to Rav Gellis.

Yisrael Medad


From: Tony Glickman <glickman@...>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 07:50:24 -0400
Subject: Direction to turn

Concerning the direction to turn for Lechah Dodi, halachic authorities
apply the Rambam's statement in the laws of N'siat Kapayim (Birkat Kohanim)
that one should always turn to the right to apply to all turns that one
makes including that for Lechah Dodi. The same halachah applies of course
to Kohanim who turn to their right in the middle of the Berachah and turn
again to the right when the ShaTZ begins Sim Shalom.


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 09:43:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gay Clubs at Cardozo law school

Mr Stier continues his attacks on Yeshiva in his most recent letter 
concerning the gay clubs at Cardozo law school.  Most of his issues have 
been addressed before, so I will only respond to his new claim -- that 
there is clear case law supporting the right of Yeshiva University to 
refuse recognition of the Gay and Lesbian clubs in the graduate 
divisions.  Mr. Stier cites the case of Scheiber v. St. John's 
University, 615 NYS2d 332 (June 1994) where the New York Court of Appeals 
(the state's highest court) ruled that St. John's could dismiss a senior 
vice president from the Catholic University because he was Jewish.  This 
case is clearly not on point, as any reader of the case can tell.
	First, the Court of Appeals clearly distinguishes between high 
level managment of the University and all other forms of discrimination.  
According to this case, Yeshiva could dismiss "University Admininstration."
It would very much surprise me -- and there is nothing in the case to 
lead a resonable reader to conclude -- that any University could 
discriminate in faculty hiring, student admission or student services, as 
Yeshiva would be forced to do.
	Second, St. John' University structure is profoundly different 
from Yeshiva's in that Yeshiva has -- in order to keep itself eligible 
for "bundy money" spun off its religious institutions into affiliates 
with which it has no legal connection.  St John's never did that, -- and 
gets no Bundy money-- and thus has a completely different "corporate 
structure".  (My own opinion on whether Yeshiva was wise when it made this 
corporate reorganization in 1967, I will not voice, but I will note that 
the Rav thought this reorganization was unwise, and opposed it).
	Third, as far as I can tell, this case is interperting a 
different law -- a New York State law -- and Yeshiva is confronting a 
New York City law.
	In short, there is little doubt that this "law" cited by
Mr. Stier is not on point.
	It might be that Yeshiva should none the less refuse to recognize 
these clubs, and be sued. and lose (maybe).  It is not by any means clear 
that Yeshiva has a right to decline to recognize homosexual clubs and 
discriminate against homosexual students, as Mr. Steier claims it has.

Michael Broyde
Faculty member
Emory University School of Law
Fellow in the Law and Relgion Program
(NYU Law, Class of 88)


From: Shemtov Shapiro <shapiro@...>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 23:50:25 -0400
Subject: Godel's Uncertainty Principle and Judaism

Ben Rothke wrote:
> Has anyone examined Godel's principle as how it should influence a 
> religious Jew's outlook to science?  Godel states that within an
> arithmetic system, there are propositions which cannot be proved or
> disproved within the system.  What about the system of Halacha?

    I don't see how it applies to Halacha, but I do apply it in a very
positive way to my Emuna (religious belief).  In the system of life,
ultimatly, every proof falls short of completeness.  Think about it, can
you prove 100 percent that your mother is really your mother.  No, but
you believe it because everything points to it being true so it probably
is.  So too with G-D.  You can't prove or disprove that G-D exists, but
that doesn't matter because probability tells you that G-D
exists. e.g. The world being so orderly, so beautiful, corroboration
from the Torah, Mamad Har Sinai, etc...
    Once I establish this as belief it now factors into the equation
when deciding on the probability of other things e.g the idea of Reward
and Punishment in the world to come etc...

    P.S.  This is my first chance to say hello to everybody back in the
States since we made Aliyah, so hi there everyone!!!  Life is rough here
but its a great feeling to daven "Musaf" every shabbos and not feel
guilty when I say "Shetaalaynu Besimcha Leartzenu" (about doing my


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:22:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is the "beit yosef" available on line?

	I am urgently looking for a place that has the "beit yosef" 
available on line to check a peice of data.  Does anyone know if the beis 
yosef is on line anywhere?  (It is not on bar-ilan or davka)?
	Does machon Yerushalayim (which just typeset the Tur) have them 
on line?  How are they contacted?
	Thank you.
	Michael Broyde


From: Harry Schick <75773.171@...>
Date: 11 May 95 21:50:16 EDT
Subject: Kaballah as Chomas Ha Emes

In regards to why kaballah is referrred to as chomas ha emes, there are
a few possibilities that I know of. First, kabbalah is sometimes used as
a term corresponding to sod in the Pardes level of learning. This could
explain why it is called such since sod level may be the greatest of
wisdom and truth. Or it may be that in kaballah really lies the greatest
level of truth. To say this we must define what kaballah is, but briefly
at least remember that it is all based on Torah. It couldn't be said
that kaballah is greater than Torah but perhaps is the greatest
understanding of Torah.  I would also add a comment by Rabbi Eliyahu,
the Gaon of Vilna who says "The essence of redemption depends upon the
study of Kaballah."


From: <halibard@...> (Moishe Halibard)
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:10:45 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Lecha Dodi

In the Ari shul in Zfat, I believe that the 'correct' minhag is to face
the west during 'boi beshalom', as the original talmidim of the Ari did
when walking back to town for shabbat after saying kabbalat shabbat in
the fields. This also happens to be the direction of the door, by
coincidence. For 'boi kallah', hoowever, they face the back of the shul,
which is in fact North, in some gesture of solidarity with klaal


From: <FDWECK@...> (Yeshuah Ezra Dweck )
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 21:44:37 -0400
Subject: Lecha Dodi

Lon Eisenberg writes:
<<<IMHO, the correct direction to which to turn is to the west (it doesn't
matter where the doors or ark are located).>>>

That isn't only Lon's opinion (even though his opinion is always valued)
It also happens to be Rabenu Ha-Ari's Opinion, because the Shechinah
(which Shabbat represents) come in from the west. 

See "Sha'ar Hakavanot" RE: Kabalat Shabbat.

Fred E. Dweck 
Yeshuah Ezra Dweck 


From: Joe Halberstadt <fx_joe@...>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:22:23 GMT
Subject: RE: Question on turning for Lcha Dodi

>From: Philip Ledereic <ledereic@...>
>This is probably a stupid question, but one that always bothered me.
>When turning for Lcha Dodi (toward the doorway, to greet the Shabbos
>Queen), does one turn clockwise or counterclockwise, and how
>should one turn back - the same direction or different, or
>it does not matter?

Not a stupid question!

We have a principle
"Kol pinah sheato  poneh, lo yehe ela leyemin" loosely translated
as you always turn to the right.

Now it is not always entirely clear how this works, as for example
when we do hakafos in shul we always walk anti-clockwise. Also check up the
way the Cohen would walk round the top of the Mizbeach. I think a bride 
also walks anticlockwise round the groom.

However, when revolving on ones axis, as for Lecha Dodi, Bircas Cohanim and
when the Chazzan turns before saying Gadlu after taking the Sefer Torah
from the ark, we always turn clockwise.

Yossi Halberstadt - who turns for Bircas Cohenim,  hopes to walk round
		    the Mizbeach, but never circle a groom!

Joe Halberstadt                                 <HALBERSTADTJ@...>


From: <kimel@...> (Moishe Kimelman)
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 20:55:42 +1000
Subject: Shiluach Haken

In # 55 Phillip Ledereic wrote:

>About the topic on Shiluach Haken, a sefer by Rabbi Mordechai Sharabi
>quotes that the mitzvoh may be a segulah (not sure how to translate) for
>a childless couple to have children.

This widely known segulah has been attributed to a number of latter day 
gedolim, when in fact the source is Midrash Rabba (Devarim 6:6):

"There are mitzvot that have riches as their reward, and there are mitzvot 
that have honor as their reward.  What is the reward of this mitzvah 
(Shiluach Haken)?  That if you do not have children I will give you 
children.  Where is the source for this?  As it says: 'Send away the 
mother.'  And what reward do you receive?  'And the children you will take 
for yourself.'"


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 12:42:35 +0000
Subject: Tekheleth

This is not the first time this is being discussed.  I'm still puzzled
about certain issues that have never been clarified:

If zithzith [fringes] require tehkeleth [special blue] (as is stated in
the Torah), how to we justify wearing four-cornered garments (at least
those of wool, for which zithzith are not just rabbinic) without
tekheleth?  If the reason for wearing four-cornered garments is to
observe (and not forget) the commandment of zithzith, why not do it with
garments made of materials for which the requirement of zithzith is only
rabbinic (if we are doing it without tekheleth)?

If we are allowed (for whatever reason) to wear all-white zithzith and
we have tekheleth (even if it is questionable), what harm is there in
using it (I found no source to prohibit dying of zithzith any color you
wish [except perhaps scarlet])?  I believe there was a time that the
custom was to dye zithzith the same color as the garment to which they
were attached.

Someone posted that Rabbi Tendler now wears the "new" tekheleth.  The
last time I saw Rabbi Tendler (last November), this was not true.  Has
that since changed?

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


End of Volume 19 Issue 61