Volume 19 Number 63
                       Produced: Sun May 14 17:44:55 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Jews of Belmonte, Portugal
         [Moshe Waldoks]
         [Zvi Weiss]
Mutual funds, Stocks during Peseach
         [Heather Luntz]
Psalm 110, Abraham, David & mashiach
         [Leslie Train]
Women's Mitzvoht
         [Barry L Parnas]
Words in Tanakh and Qur'an
         [Joshua W. Burton]


From: <WALDOKS@...> (Moshe Waldoks)
Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 11:11:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Jews of Belmonte, Portugal

On the Jews of Belmonte, Portugal. try to see the marvelous documentary
"the Last Marranos" avaialable from the National Center for Jewish Film
at Brandeis University Lown Bldg Waltham, MA 02254


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:39:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Marriage

Re Heather Luntz's posting:
As a side note, I heard a long time ago that the reason women were not 
*obligated* to get married and engage in P'ru U'rvu was because they had 
a strong element of danger.  After all, there is not too much danger to a 
male in fulfilling the Mitzva of procreation (of course with AIDS..... 
but that would not apply to anyone who is engaged in a monogamous 
relation with a similarly monogamous spouse...).  HOWEVER, for a woman 
child bearing and birth was ALWAYS considered hazardous (the halacha 
treats ANY woman giving birth as being a "Chola sheyesh ba sakana" -- a 
person ill enough to be in mortal danger).  AND, this explanation stated 
that Hashem refused to give a woman a mitzva which constituted an ongoing 
I do not know if this helps the basic points of her discussion but it may 
shed light upon this one aspect.



From: Heather Luntz <luntz@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 20:58:47 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Mutual funds, Stocks during Peseach

In Vol 19#24 Yehuda Edelstein writes:

> It's quit common to own stock, in Israel or the US. Holding shares does
> that make you a partner? What about desecrating the Shabbos?

Surely the same positions would be take as are by the question of ribbus 
and corporations? So that those who hold that a limited liability company 
can charge and pay ribbus even if it is majority owned and controlled by 
Jews, would hold that a limited liability company can own chometz on 
pesach. And those who hold that you can only have shares in a company 
that gives or receives ribbus from/to Jews if the company is not majority 
owned and controlled by Jews would hold similarly in this case, while 
those who hold that holding shares in a bank makes you a partner, and 
hence is assur (unless possibly you are talking about the local bank of 
Outer Mongolia - and even then, these days, the local bank of Outer 
Mongolia would no doubt finance its operations by raising money on the
Euromarket, where it would borrow and lend at interest to all the other 
banks out there who also have Jewish shareholders) would hold that one is 
holding chometz (but if you hold by this opinion, I doubt very much you 
could be in Mutual Funds in the first place).

Or can anybody think of some reason why owing chometz would be different 
from ribus?

Chag Kasher v'Sameach


PS One of my nightmares working as a Banking and Finance lawyer is that 
someday, someone is going to ask me to draft a loan agreement between two 
Jewish controlled companies. Here in Australia, working in an 
establishment WASP law firm, where mainly we act for the big Australian 
Banks, the possibility is pretty remote, but still, i have no idea how i 
would explain that one to the firm.


From: Leslie Train <ltrain@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 01:02:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Psalm 110, Abraham, David & mashiach

Here is a letter my brother-in-law wrote to a list devoted to trying to 
missionize to the Jews:
Comments and suggestions are very welcome.

Thank you, Teus, for asking me why I think Psalm 110 is about Abraham and
not Jesus. Because of the recent holy days I have not been able to send my
response until now, but let me begin by thanking you for the opportunity
to teach you all the true meaning of the scriptures and bring you closer
to the ONE God. 

If we read Psalm 110, we would find a fairly literal, albeit flowery,
prayer of David to God as his soldiers went out to battle without him (he
was, by then, too old to go along). In his prayer, David evokes images of
God's transactions with Abraham during the earlier battle Abraham had with
the 4 kings (Genesis 14). Essentially, David is asking God to help him as
God had earlier helped Abraham. 

How do we know this? The Great Sage Rashi, details the answer VERY
clearly, both in his commentary to Psalms and Tractate Sanhedrin. Firstly,
the reference in verse 2 of the Psalm refers to "adonee" = master (not
"adonai" = lord as various Christian scholars have mistakenly read (it is
a simple reading error)).  The term Adonee is very commonly known
throughout Scriptures as referring to Adonee Abraham, the first person God
ever used that term with (see Genesis).  Next, Psalm 110 is full of other
terms that make reference to Abraham's battle with the 4 kings, including
references to Malchizedek, the "crushing" of the kings, silencing at his
"feet", and the reference of Abraham's pursuit of the ONE God right after

There is absolutely no question that David is making reference to Abraham,
invoking his image, to solicit help from God. However, David was also a
prophet, and many have assumed that the use of the future tense in David's
prayer was also a prophecy of the future messiah. If it be so, it only
further confirms what is already known, that Jesus was not the messiah.
Why? Because it reconfirms the necessary pre-requisites that the messiah
must meet, and that Jesus did not fulfill. What are these? The answer is

Rambam in Sefer Shoftim - Hilchot Milachim (Book of Judges - Laws of
Kings) chapter 11, law 4, summarizes all the requirements of the messiah.
They are: 

	Minimum Pre-requisites
	  (1) descend from David (be of a human male sperm) 
		i.e. and ordinary human
	  (2) must be a ruling king (for the laws about how someone 
		becomes a king see the same book above, chapter 1, law 3).
	  (3) must engage in full-time Torah study
	  (4) perform all mitzvoth
	  (5) have unified ALL Jewish people in the belief of ONE God 
		before being accepted as the messiah
	  (6) be world-known as an advocate of morality, not just among 
		the Jews
	Absolute requirements
	  (7) must physically rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
	  (8) gather all Jews to Jerusalem, before being accepted as 
		the messiah
	Signs that he is the messiah
	  (9) the whole world will worship the ONE God

Furthermore, the messiah position is not one that comes from birth. In
every generation there are those who have the potential to be the messiah,
but have chosen, by free will, not to be for one reason or another. The
simple fact that the whole world does not yet worship the ONE God is sign
enough that the messiah has not yet come (the concept of a 'second coming'
is simply made up to try and get around the rules). Just because someone
or a follower claims messiah status doesn't make it so - in fact, it makes
it impossible because it violates rule 4 (for example, immodesty). So?
Obviously Jesus or anyone else who claims to be the son of God cannot be
the messiah - therefore, there is no way Psalm 110 is talking about Jesus. 

My friends, I have shown you clearly that you should change course to the
ONE God. This list was designed to spread the Christian word to Jews. You
have asked Jews to have an open mind when they read your texts - this is a
standard you should also hold for yourselves as well. If you are willing
to see the truth, you will find it along the path I have shown you. When
any of you is ready, I will set you up with a proper educational system
for pursuing the ONE God. 

	Avi Hyman


From: Barry L Parnas <BLPARN@...>
Date: Mon, 08 May 95 12:23:39 cst
Subject: Women's Mitzvoht

Chana (Heather) Luntz brought up the issue that women do not have the
chiuvot (obligations) to marry and raise children (p'ru u'rvu), as men do.

>ie Here you have a woman - she is not obligated to marry, she is not 
>obligated to have children, she is not obligated to study torah, she is 
>not obligated to earn a parnassa, she is not obligated to learn a trade.

My question is:  Why should a woman marry and raise children according to our 

"When a man takes a woman" - from the Chumash.  It is with her consent,
according to the Chachomim.  If she is not obligated in marriage and
raising children perhaps she is not m'kayam (taking care of) something
in which she is obligated.

I realize the case is taken to an extreme, but why isn't it the case?
If she learns Torah intensely, some say she is not fulfilling other
obligations.  So, what about marriage and raising children?

Baruch Parnas


From: <burton@...> (Joshua W. Burton)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 20:17:53 -0400
Subject: Words in Tanakh and Qur'an

Here is a count of all occurrences of the word 'Israel' in the translated
Tanakh (KJV).  This does not distinguish between the man, the people, and
the land, of course.  Still, the distribution is somewhat interesting.

  43 BeReshit      168 Shemot         66 VaYiqra       234 BaMidbar
  71 Dvarim        157 Yehoshua      183 Shoftim       147 ShmuelA
 112 ShmuelB       198 MlakhimA      160 MlakhimB       92 Yeshayahu
 126 Yirmiyahu     185 Yehezqel       43 Hoshea          3 Yoel
  29 Amos            1 Ovadia         12 Mika            1 Nahum
   4 Tzefania        5 Zekharia        5 Malakhi        62 Tehilim
   1 Mashlei         1 ShirHaShirim    5 Rut             3 Eikha
   1 Kohelet         4 Daniel         39 Ezra           22 Nehemya
 112 DivreiYamimA  183 DivreiYamimB

Here is a similar count for the word 'Jerusalem'.  This does not count
one appearance of 'Salem' each in BeReshit and Tehilim.

   9 Yehoshua        5 Shoftim         1 ShmuelA        30 ShmuelB
  28 MlakhimA       62 MlakhimB       49 Yeshayahu     107 Yirmiyahu
  26 Yehezqel        6 Yoel            2 Amos            2 Ovadia
   8 Mika            4 Tzefania       40 Zekharia        2 Malakhi
  17 Tehilim         8 ShirHaShirim    7 Eikha           5 Kohelet
   1 Ester          10 Daniel         48 Ezra           38 Nehemya
  24 DivreiYamimA  127 DivreiYamimB

Here is 'Zion'.

   1 ShmuelB         1 MlakhimA        2 MlakhimB       47 Yeshayahu
  17 Yirmiyahu       7 Yoel            2 Amos            2 Ovadia
   9 Mika            2 Tzefania        8 Zekharia       37 Tehilim
   1 ShirHaShirim   15 Eikha           1 DivreiYamimA    1 DivreiYamimB

And, to satisfy my curiosity, here is the count for 'Jew', which of course
tends to date the books in which it appears.  

   4 MlakhimB        2 Yeshayahu      10 Yirmiyahu       1 Zekharia
  52 Ester           3 Daniel          8 Ezra           11 Nehemya
   1 DivreiYamimB

I checked for various Divine names, and the oft-heard claim that only
Ester lacks any mention seems slightly incorrect.  In particular, if
there is any such mention in Shir ha-Shirim, I can't find it.  By the
way, if anyone wants any other words searched, this is literally the 
labor of a moment, so just let me know what you're curious about.

However, before we make invidious comparisons to Islamic scripture, it
behooves us to check the facts.  Neither 'Zion' nor 'Jerusalem' appears
explicitly in the Qur'an (although the alleged oblique reference to the
latter is well known).  But here is the count on 'Israel'.

   6 TheCow                3 TheFamilyOfImran      6 TheFood
   4 TheElevatedPlaces     3 Yunus                 4 TheIsraelites
   1 Marium                3 TaHa                  4 ThePoets
   1 TheAnt                1 TheAdoration          1 TheBeliever
   1 TheEmbellishment      1 TheEvidentSmoke       1 TheKneeling
   1 TheSandhills          2 TheRanks

Before anyone objects to this, let me emphasize that _every_ one of these
occurrences is either (1) in the phrase `children of Israel', (2) within
the word `Israelites', or (3) clearly referring to Ya'acov Avinu himself.
There is not a trace of a reference to the land by this name.

Finally, since our well-beloved moderator deletes all my best signatures, 
and leaves all the worst ones untouched, I'll throw in two nice relevant
quotes.  I'm curious to see which one makes it onto the list, Avi; please
don't disappoint me by sending them both through uncensored.  :)

[I'll let them through with comment. As clearly stated in the Welcome
message, which I send out at the beginning of about every other volume
as well, I state that 4-line maximum signature is allowed, anything
above 4-lines, or lines that do not contain identification information
is truncated. Mod.]

  Musa [Moses] said to his people:  remember, O my people, +------------------+
the favor of Allah upon you when he raised up prophets     | Joshua W. Burton |
among you, made you kings, and gave you what He has given  | burton@          |
to no other nation.  Enter, O my people, the holy land     |    het.brown.edu |
which Allah has assigned for you; never turn back, or you  | (401)435-6370    |
shall be ruined....  -- Qur'an, Sura V:20-21 [the Table]   +------------------+

Surely those who believe and |=================================================
those who are Jews...shall   | Joshua Burton (401)435-6370 <burton@...>
have no fear. -- Qur'an V:69 |=================================================


End of Volume 19 Issue 63