Volume 19 Number 79
                       Produced: Wed May 31 21:44:17 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline Meals in the Nine Days
         [Adina B. Sherer]
Al Hamichya - v19#62
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
Breaking a Tenaim
         [Jonathan Baker]
         [Michael Lipkin]
Hallel (half or full) on Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim
         [Jerrold Landau]
Jewish history in greek
         [Esther Nussbaum]
Marrying ones Minor Daughter
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Mechitza in a Shul
         [Rose Landowne]
On Becoming a Grandfather
         [Ira Hammerman]
Ponovich and Yom Haatzmaut
         [Adina B. Sherer]
Shabbat Cosmetics
         [Michael J Broyde]
Voluntary Psukim
         [Michael Shimshoni]
Yom Haatzmaut
         [M. Press]


From: <adina@...> (Adina B. Sherer)
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 22:35:47 IDT
Subject: Airline Meals in the Nine Days

> >From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
> I will (alas) be travelling to Park City, UT during the Nine Days, for a
> professional conference.  (Kosher food will be a neat trick.  I think
> I'll be packing some matzah and sardines.)
> Kosher airline meals are invariably fleishig.  What do most people do in
> this situation?  (I seem to recall this being discussed previously on
> mail-jewish.)

At least on TWA flights from Israel, if you ask for Glatt Kosher you 
get a fish patty with a Badatz Hashgacha.  You can also join Daf Yomi
and have a siyum on Sanhedrin during the nine days this year :-)

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 22:09:58 +0200
Subject: Al Hamichya - v19#62

To the best of my knowledge, as stated, Al Hamichya (blessing after
eating something baked from the 5 grains), is only recited if the SHIUR
(amount) was eaten within a time limit (few minutes). The SHIUR is the
equivalent of a KAZAYIT (olive but during the time of the Talmud). The
amount is by volume and not by weight. It's the volume displaced when an
"olive" is placed into a full cup of water. In Israel, a standard
matchbox is considered to be that SHIUR. One should take note that on
Yom Kipur, one who must eat due to medical reasons, should use food
which is more nourishing, but less then the Shiur. A chocolate bar, less
than the SHIUR, is permissable just as a sponge cake of the same SHIUR
(volume), but of course one would be more satisfied with a chocolate

Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: <baker@...> (Jonathan Baker)
Date: Tue, 30 May 95 9:19:29 EDT
Subject: Breaking a Tenaim

Someone recently asked me an odd question, which I have insufficient
knowledge to answer.  I thought I'd pass it on to the accumulated wisdom
of the list.

I know that breaking off a relationship after a betrothal (erusin)
requires a get (divorce document).  What are the consequences and
requirements of breaking off a relationship after a tenaim (engagement
agreement) was signed at an engagement party?


From: <msl@...> (Michael Lipkin)
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 13:31:09 +0500
Subject: Gambling

>From: Joe Goldstein 

>Gambling is definitely prohibited| At the very least it is a form of 
>theft. The halacha is ASMACHTA LO KANYA, i.e. When gambling no one really 
>expects to lose and as such does not really mean to give up his money. 

This may be true for a "friendly" game of poker, but what about casinos.
Casinos DO have an expectation to lose some of their money.  In fact
some even advertise the "return" on their games.



From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 13:13:48 EDT
Subject: Hallel (half or full) on Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim

If one accepts that the saying of Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut and Yom
Yerushalayim is appropriate, there are four permutations.  Full Hallel
or Half Hallel, and with or without a Beracha.

I had the opportunity of leading the congregation in Hallel yesterday
(Yom Yerushalayim).  There were no Rabbis present, so I relied on my
understanding of the Halachic issues involved, and some previous
precendents that I had heard about.  I said full Hallel, but omitted the
berachot at the beginning and end.  I relied on the principle of 'safek
berachot lehakel' (if there is doubt about a beracha, one is lenient --
i.e. one does not say the beracha).  I realize that there are opinions
that indicate that there is no doubt about the beracha on these days, as
open miracles occurred on these days -- but I felt it best to play it

The only times that it one says half Hallel is on Rosh Chodesh and the
latter part of Pesach.  There are specific halachic reasons for half
Hallel in these two cases.  On Rosh Chodesh we say half Hallel because
the Hallel is a minhag (custom) rather than a Rabinnical enactment.  On
the latter days of Pesach, we say half Hallel either because we show
that some of our joy is lessened because of the drowning of the
Egyptians in the Red sea, or for the halachic reason that there is no
difference in the sacrifices on each day of Pesach (unlike Sukkot), and
therefore each day does not warrant its own Hallel.

It would seem that neither of these two reasons apply on Yom Haatzmaut
and Yom Yerushalayim.  We say Hallel (those of us who do) in recognition
that miracles have occured to the Jewish People on those days.  Thus, it
would seem that a half Hallel is not warranted.  However, one could
argue that, since there is no precedent for Hallel on those days, and
since there is no unanimous Rabbinical enactment legislating Hallel on
those days, that one should say only half Hallel.

In any case, once I said the full Hallel without a beracha, one of the
older members of the congregation chastised me.  I was told that, if one
says a whole Hallel, one must say a beracha with it.  Otherwise, one
must say a half Hallel.

My questions (after the preceding halachic preamble) are: does a full
Hallel without a beracha retain the status of Hallel?  Is it somewhat
contradictory to say a full Hallel without a Beracha?  Does the skipping
out of the two paragraphs in Hallel (aside from Rosh Chodesh and Pesach)
serve any halachic purpose in indicating that there is some unclarity of
the status of Hallel on a given day?

After all the above, I still feel that the most appropriate form of
Hallel for those days is a full Hallel without a beracha (although I do
not quibble with those who feel that a beracha is warranted).  I would
be interested in knowing what form of Hallel other communities recite on
these days.

Jerrold Landau


From: Esther Nussbaum <nussbaum@...>
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 21:40:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Jewish history in greek

Does anyone know of a history of the Jews written in or translated into 
the modern Greek language? I have had a request for such. Please reply to:
<esthern@...> or to nussbaum@panix.com
Tahnk you.

Esther nussbaum


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 10:26:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marrying ones Minor Daughter

:The act of helping the father carry out this evil plan is a sin in and
:of itself. Therefore, I want to suggest, that the act of being a witness
:automatically renders these witnesses invalid.

The laws which determine whether or not a witness is invalid are not 
based on whether you personally feel that so and so was involved ina n 
evil plan. These witnesses have not done anything to make themselves pasul.
However, one can force them to say who the husband is and then the 
husband can be forced to support his wife...

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://haven.ios.com/~likud/steinber/
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 22:12:57 -0400
Subject: Mechitza in a Shul

The most acceptable argument I've heard for having a mechitza in a shul
where most of the members wouldn't care, is the argument used last
summer at the Westhampton Synagogue.They built a shul with a Mechitza
because they wanted to be as inclusive as possible, and in a community
where there were not a lot of synagogues, did not want to be in the
position to exclude anyone who might need a place to daven.

Rose Landowne


From: Ira Hammerman <ELTA%<ILNCRD@...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 23:06 IST
Subject: Re: On Becoming a Grandfather

    Congratulations to Eli Turkel on joining the community of

    Rav Soloveitchik in his essay on "The First Jewish Grandfather",
in "Man of Faith in the Modern World -- Reflections of the Rav, Vol II"
by Abraham R. Besdin, says that,

        "In Talmudic and Midrashic lireature, Jacob is often called
        Yisrael Sava [Grandfather Israel]...In what manner, we ask,
        did Jacob distinguish himself, that his name became the
        generic name for an entire people ...the answer is that
        Jacob was the first patriarch to establish a direct communion
        with his grandchildren...Abraham and Isaac transmitted their
        spiritual heritage to their sons, not to their grandsons
        ...Jacob howver related directly to his grandchildren...it
        was he who created the Jewish community which ensures Jewish
        continuity...Though the covenant was made initially with
        Abraham, it was not until Jacob that the secret of of
        perpetuating the Mesorah [Tradition] was discovered"

   May Eli's grandchildren learn directly from him how to so
and freshly transmit the Mesorah while adding to it.

Ira Hammerman (:-)=== ,
grandfather of Rachel Tsipora Hadad (age 2)  8:)
and Noa Chamshana Hadad (age 1 month)         :D



From: <adina@...> (Adina B. Sherer)
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 22:47:21 IDT
Subject: Ponovich and Yom Haatzmaut

When I was in Yeshiva here some years ago my Rebbe, who was a talmid in
Ponovich in the '60's said that Rav Kahaneman was once asked how he
davened on Yom Haatzmaut.  His response was "I daven like Ben Gurion - I
don't say Tachnun and I don't say Hallel".  I've heard the story
confirmed many times here in Israel....

[Similar story submitted by Avraham Teitz - <TEITZ.AVRAHAM@...> 

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 12:29:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Shabbat Cosmetics

One of the writers asked whether other poskim disagree with Rav Moshe 
concerning temporary Shabbat make up.  I would like to reverse this.  Rav 
Shlomo Auerbach quite clearly disagrees in Minchat Shlomo (and I beleive 
his approach is also cited in Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata).  Most of the 
works that I have seen also disagree with Rav Mosh's novel insight that a 
purely temporary dyeing is permitted.  (For example, my notes indicate 
that both Rav Weiss and Rav Briesh disagree).  Does anyone know of 
contemporary authorities (other than students of Rav Moshe) who agree?
Michael Broyde


From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 15:33:44 +0300
Subject: Re: Voluntary Psukim

Aryeh Siegel <lol9519@...> discusses the question:
> > At a 50th wedding anniversary celebration on a Sunday night of a day
> > in which Tachanun was said, the MC sang Shir HaMa`alot [a Psalm] prior
> > to Birkat Hamazon [grace after a meal].  Can someone tell me whether
> > such a practice is : commendable, proper, acceptible, permitted, or
> > improper ?

A. Siegel states in reply:
> In the siddur Otzer HaTfilot, the Eshel Avraham is quoted quoting the
> sefer Shnei Luchot HaBrit as follows: On Shabbat, Yom Tov and any day
> that one does not say Tachanun, Shir HaMaalot is said before Birkat
> HaMazon. On any other day, Al Naharot Bavel is said *in order to
> mention/cause a reminder of the destruction of the Temple.* The Eshel
> Avraham adds that it seems that Al Naharot Bavel is not said on Shabbat
> because on Shabbat one does not remember the destruction of the Temple.

I am surprised by that reason of Eshel Avraham.  After all in many
places one does remember the destruction of the Temple also on Shabbat.
The examples are many, as in the Amida prayers of Shabbat, like in those
of weekdays, we find clearly a mention of the missing Temple in
"*vehashev* et ha'avoda lidvir betekha etc. etc." But as the discussion
was about the Psalm to recite before birkat hamazon, in it itself we
find in the "retze" added *especially for Shabbat*: "vehar'enu
 .. benehemat tziyon irekha uvevinyan Yerushalayim etc.  So if a mention
of the loss of the Temple is permitted there, why not also in 'al
naharot bavel?

  Michael Shimshoni


Date: Mon, 29 May 95 00:47:07 EST
Subject: Re: Yom Haatzmaut

In the discussion of Yom Haatzmaut it is important to differentiate between
the perception of G-d's miraculous interventions throughout the history of
the last 50 years and the question of the holiday itself and its religious
observances.  Those who have cited the attitude of various Gdolei Yisroel
to the events of 1948 as positive, even awe-struck, are correct; many of the
great figures of the Torah world even signed on a statement that the times
were the beginning of the redemption. At the same time their attitude even then
toward the state and its government were at best neutral.  The events over the
succeeding years have at least underlined the failure of this state to even
approximate that which the Jewish people has longed for for two millennia and
have inevitably led to more negative attitudes.  At this point in time one
need only point to the current developments in Bnai Akiva and Merkaz Harav
circles, prayer modifications, etc. to see how far we are from where we hope to
be and to appreciate the wisdom of most Gdolei Yisroel in reserving judgment.

Melech Press
M. Press, Ph.D.   Dept. of Psychiatry, SUNY Health Science Center
450 Clarkson Avenue, Box 32   Brooklyn, NY 11203   718-270-2409


End of Volume 19 Issue 79