Volume 19 Number 81
                       Produced: Wed May 31 23:29:39 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airplane Meals
         [Susan Hornstein]
Birth of a Baby Girl!
         [Zvi and Shlomo Pick]
Co-ed schools
         [Ari Shapiro]
         [Ncoom Gilbar]
Derech Eretz in boys-only classes
         [M. Linetsky]
Dvar Torah
         [Noah Katz]
Looking for song
         [Josh Males]
         [Jan David Meisler]
Names of God and Erasure
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Salt on the Challah on Friday Night
         [Jeffrey Woolf]
Selling Chametz Utensils
         [Steve Ganot]
Shok, Elbow and Citations
         [Aleeza Esther Berger]
Vegetarian Foods and Kashrus.
         [Immanuel O'Levy]


From: Susan Hornstein <susanh@...>
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 12:31:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Airplane Meals

It is possible to request Kosher-Fish meals if the request is made ahead
of time.  As always, with airline meals, you can't actually count on
getting it, but it's worth a shot.  Actually, El Al was the airline that
I accomplished this on, but I know that fish meals do exist in the
Wilton/Schreiber repertoire.  

Susan Hornstein <susanh@...>


From: pick%<uhavax.dnet@...> (Zvi and Shlomo Pick)
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 15:58:04 -0400
Subject: Birth of a Baby Girl!

I happy to announce that i have a become first time Zeidie to my newly
born grand-daughter, who is also a great-grand-daughter to my parents
(until a 120) and a great-great grand-daughter to my grandmother, may
she be healthy - a first for them all! May all the readers join us in
this simcha - and may we join them in theirs.  

We would like to share our simcha of the birth of our first
greatgrandchild, respectively our first grandchild, with all the
subscribers of mail-jewish.  Beila Bina, weighing 6 7/8 lbs, was born
the 22nd of Iyar to Itzchak and Dafna Alfa of Bnei Berak. Harry and Eva
Pick of West Hartford, CT are the maternal saba raba wesavta raba
(greatgrandfather and greatgrandmother). Rabbi and Mrs.  Shlomo Pick of
Bnei Berak are now saba wesavta (grandfather and grandmother).

Kol tuv we chag Shevuoth same'ach. Zvi and Shlomo Pick


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 14:30:36 EDT
Subject: Co-ed schools

Because I was home for Memorial Day on Monday I happened to see part of
the Oprah Winfrey show.  One of the topics was should parents let their
children have sex under their own roof? One of the points made by a
proponent (a mother who allows this) was 'she is going to do it anyway
at least let her do it in a safe place.'  A statistic mentioned was that
3/4 of high school seniors have had sex already.  These are frightening
statements and statistics and those of us living in America are
certainly affected by them.  TV, books, movies are filled with teenagers
kissing and more in a very favorable way. This behooves the Orthodox
Jewish Community to react. Letting kids know that we have different
standards by having separate schools and discouraging interaction
between the sexes would give the correct message as opposed to the one
that they are bombarded with daily from the media.

Ari Shapiro


From: <lol9517@...> (Ncoom Gilbar)
Date: Thu,  1 Jun 95 00:25:37 PDT
Subject: Cosmetics

I hate to introduce a radical argument into s "cold" halachic one, but
might one wnat to consider the MEANING of cosmetics, and whether they
perhaps have no place at all on Shabat?  Yes we can produce kosher
bacon-bits, but is that what a Jew should be doing?  Cosmetics stem from
an attempt to cover oneself up, to present oneself as other than one
actually is or looks.  Except for exceptional cases of disease or
deformity, the urge usually comes from a Western dissatisfaction with
oneself, a desire to look more like HER.  I think this contradicts a
basic value of Shabat.  No, we do not try to change the world on Shabat.
Once a week we kick back and appreciate the beauty of the world as the
Holy One Blessed Be He created it.  Once a week maybe you blessed women
should not paint yourselves up to beat the band, should diverge yourself
of your insecurities and inferiority complexes upon which so much of
Western Consumerism stands, and appreciate yourselves as the beautiful
God-created creatures that you are.  Hag Shavuot Sameach

 Ncoom Gilbar             fixing minor breakdowns in the material world 
 <lol9517@...>                                           -bilubi


From: 81920562%<TAONODE@...>       (M. Linetsky)
Date: Tue 30 May 1995 09:15 ET
Subject: Derech Eretz in boys-only classes

In issue 70 (if I am not mistaken) Zvi discusses the lack of
"citizenship" found in boys-only classes and holds partially responsible
the teachers.  I attended a boys only school (actually not so recently)
and I will be the first to admit that the behavioural standards need a
little improvement since I myself was not the best of the bunch. Yet
being a "victim" and at the same time being close enough to the
situation, I believe my input may be of some value.
  I would have great difficulty agreeing that it was due to low
disciplanary levels. Although we did not have martinets,I am sure that
only an armed policeman would have been able to evince some control over
us. What were the motives for misbehaving? Boys are energetic, both
physically and psychologically and after after prolonged confinement to
one area, the energy, both physical and psychological starts
building. Stress begins to build up and the only way to get it out (at
least one of the only ways to get it out) is to go meshuga'. I find this
the only reason why, I and my class-mates engaged in acts of vandalism
for example.  There is simply nothing else to do. Basketball was always
an alternative, but what better way to relieve stress than by inflicting
damage? I say this in all seriousness in an attempt to analyse an
 The need to relieve stress (and boredom) leads also to Shtik. When I
was in my senior year, someone (can't tell you who as if you can't
guess) put vaseline on the Rosh Mesivta's (his office's of course) door
knob, light switch, and telephone handle. When the Rosh Mesivta entered,
he opened the door, turned on the light switch and got right on the
phone (perfectly as though he knew of the plan). He then declare "I'm
getting fet, schmalz". I politely suggested he go on a diet. Was this
act done out of lack of discipline, obviously not and I belive no one in
that class, now that they graduated can even be suspected of ever being
 Another incident happenend when a non-Jewish principal was
assigned. Besides the school being knocked down in pieces (together with
the toilet stalls which became communal), the poor gentile-man found his
chair and file-cabinet floating in the pool. This of course was a hillul
hashem but was instigated by a need to releave stress and anxiety and
the assignement of the principal was a very good opportunity. As I have
said, the more damagingan act the more it releaves stress and anxiety.

      In contrast, girls are much calmer and do not have masculine
tendencies of this sort. When bored may resort to more constructive
things. A girl once told me that the school that I went to was a zoo,
and I told her that after being there so long what are we supposed to do
paint our nails?

This argument was presented in a jocular garb simply to let the reader
more easily relate to the problem

Michael Linetsky
(for more stories, please write me)


From: Noah Katz <74213.2776@...>
Date: 31 May 95 04:46:42 EDT
Subject: Dvar Torah

>anywhere in the TANACH where it is mentioned that another man's son can be
>considered as if it is yours

In Breishis parsha VaY'chi, Yaakov tells Yoseph that "your 2 sons,
Ephraim and Manashe, who were born to you in the land of Egypt, are
mine; Ephraim and Manashe shall belong to me as Reuven and Shimon" and
they are subsequently considered equal in status to the other tribes.

Noah Katz, <74213.2776@...>


From: Josh Males <jmales@...>
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 11:22:06 
Subject: Looking for song

In MJ-V19#77, Gil Winokur was looking for a song with the words "Boee
Kallah". I can only assume he is referring to a song by Achinoam
Nini. She is a Ramaz alumnus who performs with a guy named Gil Dor. I'm
not sure what the song is called, but there's a lot of "Boee Kallahs" in
the chorus.  There is also a nice flute solo in the middle.  When flying
ElAl to Europe many times this past winter, it was shown on the
in-flight video magazine. I always made sure to put my headphones on for

As far as playing it at weddings goes, I haven't ever heard it, but then
again, I haven't been to a wedding since last August.

Maybe I'll be zocheh to hear it soon at my wedding ;)

Josh Males        Talmudical Institute of Upstate NY - 1982
<jmales@...>    Jerusalem College of Technology - 1987


From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 13:47:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Molad

Mike Gerver mentioned that the Molad is not a physical event occuring at
a particular time.  I think this is incorrect.  My understanding of the
Molad (told to me by one of my Rabbis) is that it is the time that the
New Moon can first be seen anywhere in the world.  This time is given in
Jerusalem time (I don't know if this "Halachik time" or "clock time"). 
Thus, if the new moon could first be seen in the world from New York at
midnight, then the Molad would be at 7:00 am.  
This seems to make sense.  The purpose of announcing the molad and
bentsching Rosh Chodesh (saying the blessing on the new moon) is to act
in place of witnesses testifying to observing the new moon.  So,
announcing when the new moon can be seen seems appropriate.  Using
Jerusalem time is also appropriate since the witnesses needed to testify
before a beit din (court) in Israel.



From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 10:33:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Names of God and Erasure 

Cheryl Hall (MJ19#77) writes:
>Where does the kedusha come from for all these substitute
>representations?  We have a substitute for a substitute for a
>substitute. Why bother substituting if the substitute assumes the 
>same kedusha. I have recently seen published in a magazine article 
>"HaSh-m", this seems absurd.

Not really. The word "hashem" is used in the Tanach itself in reference
to God. For example "va'ykov et ha'shem" (Lev 24:11); or "le'yrah et
ha'shem" (Det. 28:58). See also Isa. 73:11; Ez. 22:5; Chron I, 11:34

It maybe called a Biblical substitute if you wish, but no different than
any other substitutes used in the Bible for God's name. We generally see
the original name and all it Biblical substitutes as holy. I share your
observation that we treat "ha'shem" differently but I am not sure why.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Jeffrey Woolf <F12043@...>
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 12:59:25 IDT
Subject: Re: Salt on the Challah on Friday Night

AM Goldstein asked about the origin of not using salt on the Challah on
Friday Night. The way I understood the custom, it has nothing to do with
Friday Night.  Rather it is based on a comment of the Shitta Mequbetzet
on Tractate Keritot (in the small letter in the back), that saisd that
in menahot (meal offerings) the salt was offered mixed up in the loaf of
the minha. Thus, since Hallah is generally made with salt, salt need not
be added. As a result, the only time you NEED to put salt on bread is
Pesach because matzot are baked without salt.

                                                       Jeffrey Woolf
                                                       Talmud Department
                                                        Bar Ilan University


From: Steve Ganot <STEVEGAN@...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 18:35:38 GMT+0200
Subject: Selling Chametz Utensils

Eliyahu Teitz wrote:
> The poster also mentioned that he sold his chametz to a non-Jew
> directly.  We not only sell our actual chametz, but also chametz
> absorbed in utensils.  Since the poster did not do this, he should
> ask a competent halachic authority as to the status of his dishes
> and pots.

This is not necessarily so.  My rav holds that one need not sell
chametzdik utensils for Pesach.  It never occured to me that he may
have meant that the utensils remain ours, while the absorbed chametz
in them is sold.  When I sell ALL my chametz (the actual chametz, not
the utensils), have I also sold the chametz absorbed into my
utensils? I don't know.  But if I can sell my absorbed chametz to my
rav who sells it to someone else ... who sells it to a non-Jew, why
couldn't the recent poster have sold his or her absorbed chametz
directly to a non-Jew?  Further, shouldn't saying the bitul take
care of any possibly unsold chametz absorbed in utensils?  

Steve Ganot


From: Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...>
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 11:16:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shok, Elbow and Citations

>M. Press writes:
>  The substantial majority of rishonim and akharonim who
> discuss the matter agree that "shok" is the lower arm or leg and that a
> woman is therefore expected to cover her body up to the wrist or ankle.

citations, please?

Aliza Berger


From: <imo@...> (Immanuel O'Levy)
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 11:41:00 BST
Subject: Vegetarian Foods and Kashrus.

Apart from Bishul Akum, there is something else to check for in
assessing the kashrus of vegetarian or vegan foods - the use of grape
juice or wine (or products based on these) as an ingredient, which
probably won't have been made under adequate supervision.

 Immanuel M. O'Levy,                               JANET: <imo@...>
 Dept. of Medical Physics,                        BITNET: <imo@...>
 University College London,                     INTERNET: <imo@...>
 11-20 Capper St, London WC1E 6JA, Great Britain.         Tel: +44 171-380-9704


End of Volume 19 Issue 81